86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

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86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Wesman07 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:21 pm

Hey guys,

I'm new here, and new the the a/c world. Ill admit I'm out of my element with this stuff and I am looking for expert advice.

Ok so I have an 86 f150 that had dealer installed ac. I believe the compressor was an HR980 2 Gr. Unfortunately, the old compressor went out with the old motor. I updated the carbed I6 for a fuel injected one a few years back. So no I am trying to retro fit a compressor and condenser back in the truck.

This is what I know:

1) The refrigerant lines are clamp on
2) the old motor was v belt, the new is serpentine
3) there is one wire that is with the refrigerant lines
4) the system has been open for 6 years

What I need to know is:

1) what do I need to do?
2) what refrigerant should i use?
3) Should I stick with the HR980? or update to a fs6 or fs10?

Thanks so much guys,
Wes
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Re: 86F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:23 pm

Welcome: Please not top locked post that this forum is about to close out and there's a link to the new one.

OK - This "aftermarket" and being all of an 1986 now somehow fuel injected new motor going to need to know if you wish to use parts that fit the new motor and belt exactly or if you have all the stuff take it from the old engine. Left open 6 years that's going to be it's own problem.

Why did condenser need be removed or what would you like to do? A new one should fit in if you have the parts now probably used to hold it in place.

This is scary and could get costly. What was the last refrigerant you knew of in this? Now 134a would be the choice. If it was set for R-12 you lose 20% of what the aftermarket could do already less than an OE set up but a truck has small cab.

If a condenser for R-12 was used decided if you wish to keep it or more efficient for 134a a new one or lose some BTU power there too.

This could be quite involved depending on what the new(used) motor came out of and what will fit.

Dare say an aftermarket compressor from 1986 isn't going to have a serpentine belt clutch/pulley combo so easily or at all?

Lots to think about this cobbled truck on many fronts. Are you sure you want to what I see is quite a fight to get this to work at all easily or cost efficient at all.

Almost everything open air got to is going to be a trouble spot - all of it.

IDK how well clamped hose is going to work out or what you can find for now "barrier" hose not what was used in 1986.

Quite the project to even get this to run properly with the changes never mind A/C no telling if that will have to have all hoses made up special, pulleys proper and in line plus an era where I think 6 or 7 grooves were used for a while so if you go for it make sure pulley are the same or belt(s) will just shred,

Tom
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Wesman07 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:32 pm

Hey Tom, thanks for the reply!

The motor is not an issue. It has been in the truck for years and I have put over 100K on it since the swap. It is only the A/C that I am unsure about.

Compressor:
I would like to pick up an fs10 compressor as I know it will bolt right up to the motor I have now with the correct pully. Do you see an issue with this?

I believe I can find an fs6, or SD709 that will work as well, If there is a compatibility issue.

Condenser:
I had to pull the condenser out when I pulled the motor. I still have it, but its sitting in the garage.

A few people recommended that I replace that as well.

Refrigerant:
I believe the refrigerant used in 86 was R12. So, that is what the original set up used.

Should I update the system since I would be getting a new compressor and condenser?
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:17 pm

The only vehicle refrigerant in 86 was R-12 - was it kept that? R-12 doesn't leak as much and operates at lower pressures.

Condensers: Old tube and fin if not destroyed in storage will outlast a new one for 134a IMO. OE was super strong tube and fin you can see and clean. New stuff you can't and a big bug is enough to bust one.

Your call. Put original condenser back and get the parts and brackets, compressor too that fits on new engine OE and figure out what's available to hook up lines to the non OE installed parts some now need replacing some clearing out of oil.

Notes: R-12 used a mineral oil and 134a uses a PAG, Fords usually PAG 46 or Ester oil if you wish.

When you think system is good and tightened up well not to leak it will need careful attention on how much charge to give it. Lots of touch and feel for temps, observations of pressures all at once. How much oil? If you believe all is out and should be if open for 6 years a standard might be 8oz. For this I'd use Ester if any remaining mineral it should cooperate.

Know that PAG oils do absorb moisture and become acidic ruining parts - even metal line perhaps more like the evaporator?

More: R-12 was a larger molecule so didn't leak thru lesser grades of rubber hose and "O" rings. 134a uses "barrier hose" and once green "O" rings now all would be ok if right size.

It's tons more Important to have belts correct! See the % of a pulley how they are supposed to be routed. More for power steering and compressor as a % of the pulley's surface. They must be in perfect "plane" if you understand me in that they are in line or will self destruct or be hard on items/pulleys. COUNT THE # OF GROOVES! Ford used both 6 or 7 for a couple models and if just one is wrong will fail before you warm the thing up even fall right off in shreds.

Watch out for that,

Tom

PS: I'm the only one here apparently till this forum shuts down. IDK why it's active now? Refresh - the link to where this will start all over again is at..........

> https://forum.aircondition.com/ < brand new with some growing pains. Said this place will be locked up but your posts and all should be visible and archived indefinitely............
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Wesman07 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:28 pm

I agree. I plan on getting the correct factory compressor, mount and pully.

It had r12 but may have been updated to the 134? I really don't know. I would assume that I have to flush what is left of the old system very very well and start fresh. Does this determine what compressor I can use?

Should I start a new thread on the other forum?
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby cornbinder89 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:28 pm

A compressor is just a pump, it doesn't matter to it if the "fluid" is 134a or R12. I would change the condenser to a newer more efficient one for 134a.
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby cornbinder89 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:02 am

For what it is worth, the A/C in the semi I drive now was open for decades, the condenser was missing and the compressor clutch as well. I replaced the compressor (the shaft was bad) and installed a new condenser and drier and it is working very well.
The high pressure line failed after a bit, it would leak refrigerant under the layers of hose, bubbling up under the outer layer and would make a snapping sound every once and a while when the outer layer would pop open. Took me awhile to figure out what was happening! I replaced the line it has been fine ever since.
The point of that long story is it has the original Tx valve and most of the hoses. I think people can go a little over-board about open systems, replacing a lot that doesn't need to be replaced.
In my case the condenser was removed and the hoses were left open in the grill area. Plenty of chance to get water and dirt in them.
It is true that a Tx valve can stick from being exposed to moisture, but I think it is worth chancing it unless and until it shows a problem. The drier should be replaced, but truth be told I have got by without changing them, and as long as the system has been dried out and pulled to a low vacuum, you shouldn't have any moisture in the system for the drier to deal with.
In your case, I would fit what ever compressor the engine you have in there now would have had, as factory mounts tend to be the best (there are a few exceptions to this rule) and it makes getting parts easier.
If it had the old worm clamp hoses and fittings I would replace with bubble crimp or berg-clip, and barrier hose. I favor bubble crimp and have an Atco crimper. Others have found that Mastercool crimper is much cheaper in the $300-$400 range and does as good a job, but is slightly less user friendly than the Atco. If you are going to do more than one vehicle, it pays to have your own crimper, if it is a one and done deal, than have the hoses made by someone who does have one or use the berg-clip type fittings.
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:38 am

Side Topic: This spot remains alive while other is down for some construction and fixes. Please just bear with the changeover and glitches of the other,

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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Wesman07 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:49 pm

Ok so:

1) It doesn't matter what compressor i pick? fs6, fs10, etc.

2) If i choose to keep my condenser, i should stick with r12....where can i get that?

3) Is it recommended to replace my line set and dryer? If so, who would have the crimp tools etc. A standard HVAC guy??

4) What is involved with flushing out the old system?

5) Who can vac the system/ charge it?
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:01 pm

Copied your post my replies in BOLD[b]

Ok so:

1) It doesn't matter what compressor i pick? fs6, fs10, etc.I'd choose what fits properly on replacement engine before any brand or type

2) If i choose to keep my condenser, i should stick with r12....where can i get that?[R-12 will work the best but might be harder to find. Need certificate to buy it - price may have come way down. Not made new in NATO cooperating countries but hear still is in others and quantity unknown so ask around locally or Ebay maybe for small cans but need a tap still sold. Small cans either 12oz ea or some 14oz were common.

3) Is it recommended to replace my line set and dryer? If so, who would have the crimp tools etc. A standard HVAC guy?? [Bet is you would need lines made up by a shop that already has the tools and would use barrier hose if you ever want to use 134a.

4) What is involved with flushing out the old system? Flush kits available or some use lacquer thinner and lots of compressed air. Do not flush a new part like condenser, anything that has desiccant in it or a compressor already with wrong oil depending on which refrigerant you choose. Just drain those and use mineral with R-12 and suggested Ester but PAG 40 was used for most Fords.

5) Who can vac the system/ charge it?You can. Vacuum pumps and gauges are rentable from Autozone and others, free with 100% deposit for safe return. May not have gauges for R-12 nor the adaptor for high side. Trick - put on retrofit fittings defeating thread locker with tad of silicone grease then remove when done mark system for which is in it.

Next post is "Basic Charging Procedures" which is a long read didn't open above but had it on file. If in doubt find a real pro for the vacuum and charge part only knowing what you have done and probably no known capacities. Sub note that 134a is much fussier than R-12 to be correct charge!

Good luck,

Tom
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby cornbinder89 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:02 pm

No it doesn't matter what compressor, but if you can get the one that will fit on factory backets it would make things better. Oil depends on what refrigerant you are going to run, 134a make more sense $ wise.
My advice is to get the compressor and brackets fitted. on the engine, Buy as big a generic parallel flow condenser as you can fit behind the grill and then take it to a A/C shop, have them add oil to the compressor, make up new lines and install a new drier, than evacuate and charge it.
As it doesn't sound like you own any of the equipment needed to do the job, you are going to need to find a shop that can do it for you.
A/C is very expensive tooling wise for the do-it yourself're. It can pay to buy all the tools if you do a lot of it, but for one or two systems it cost more for all the tools than paying someone else to do it.
I do all my own, but have invested in $1000's in tools. Much of my stuff is custom or modified, so it makes sense from the money perspective.
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:04 pm

BASIC CHARGING PROCEDURES BELOW: (Any links with this are probably dead?)

****************
Basic Charging Procedures:
REFRIGERANT CHARGING PROCEDURE IN AUTOMOTIVE A/C SYSTEMS

We recommend reading this procedure completely before charging. You may need information before charging you want to keep handy. Have this procedure with you while charging. Although it can be done by a single person, we recommend having a helper around.

This procedure outlines the steps to perform a complete charge. These steps are not to be used to refill or make partial charges. Toping off requires system parameters monitoring and knowledge, specially in R134a-based system. Excessive gas will harm your system and will keep it from cooling properly. MORE REFRIGERANT DOES NOT MEAN COLDER TEMPERATURES

CHARGING IN GAS OR LIQUID - Please read step 10

Do not use the sightglass (if so equipped) in R134a-based systems as if were R-12 based.

SPECIAL EQUIPMENT REQUIRED

1) Vacuum pump

2) Gauges (R12 or R134a)

3) Service port adapter (as required in most R12-based systems) R134a systems do not require adapters other than the couplers in your gauges in the majority of applications

4) Refrigerant gas (R12 or R134a)

5) Optional: 2-3 ounces of specified oil.

**************

1. Make sure what is the required amount of gas. From factory, all systems have a decal under the hood that give the data. If the decal is missing or you are not sure, please specify make, model, and the type of refrigerant used and whether your system is a factory or an after market unit. It is very important to know if your system has oil. Oil starvation is the main reason of compressor failure. Oil can be added to the system in two ways: with oil injectors or through the low side port under vacuum. The procedure to add oil through vacuum is described. Some refrigerant charge and other useful specifications are provided
2. Connect both blue and red gauge hoses to the system's service ports. The discharge port (red hose) is located somewhere between the compressor and expansion device, either before the condenser or after it. In R134a systems, the port is the thicker of both, while in R12 systems is the thinner one. In some aftermarket systems, the port is located in the back of the compressor. If your ports are located in the compressor, the low side is marked by an "S" and the high side by an "H". Port caps have an "L" for low or "H" for high.
3. Open both gauge valves. Connect the common hose (yellow one) to the vacuum pump. Make sure both gauge needles are zeroed down. Needle is adjusted by turning a fine screw inside the dial. You must remove the plastic lens to do this.
4. Turn the pump on. You'll notice that both gauge readings begin to drop. The blue gauge's needle will even dip into negative values. The desired low side reading should be less than -25, while the high side will remain at 0.
5. After approximately 5 minutes, close both gauge valves. Turn the pump off, and observe the needles. Any movement will indicate vacuum loss. The faster the movement, the greater the loss. If after two minutes you don't see any needle movement, open both valves, turn the pump on, and continue vacuum for not less than 30 minutes. Close both valves then turn the pump off.
6. Get ready to charge. Have the necessary refrigerant amount handy. Cans make charging easier and more precise unless you have a charging cylinder or a precision scale.
7. Disconnect the yellow hose from the vacuum pump and connect it to the can tap or charging cylinder valve. You can charge in two ways: liquid (can upside down) or gas. Liquid charging is a lot faster but not recommended unless you extreme care or have experience. Traditional (gas) charging is slower but safer.
8. Once you've decided, and with the can or container connected, unscrew the top yellow hose connection (at the gauges) allowing refrigerant to escape for a couple of seconds. This will purge the air out of the hoses so you make sure that all you dispense is refrigerant. You can do this venting in liquid form so you can see when a fine, steady stream of refrigerant escapes indicating that all the air is gone from the hose. Don't breathe refrigerant and don't charge in a flammable environment.
9. "Flood" the system with liquid refrigerant (can upside down) by opening the red valve (high side) until it won't take anymore. Close the red valve. Jump the low pressure cycling switch (if so equipped). If you don't know what this is or where it is, ask for help.
10. Turn the engine on. Turn the A/C into MAX on its third or higher blower speed. You'll note that both gauge readings are now positive. The red gauge should read between 100 and 150, while the blue gauge between 5 and 15. If you are charging with cans, don't forget to purge air out the hose after hooking a new can as described in step 8 above. Now, charge will continue through the low (blue) side (see note below) . If you haven't jumpered any switch (you don't have to), you'll notice the compressor cycling frequently on and off. That is normal. The cycling will disappear as you dispense more refrigerant. The only disadvantage of frequent compressor cycling is that charge will take longer. Needles will move up and down with every cycle. This is normal. Do not jump any switch unless you are absolutely certain!.
WARNING: DANGER

NEVER OPEN THE RED VALVE WHILE CHARGING. The red valve is to be opened only during pre-charge, vacuum, or when a system is evacuated. Its function is keeping an eye on the high side only. It must be closed at all times. If you have any doubts, wait until you receive information. Severe injury or death may occur. Remember: ALWAYS wear safety goggles. NEVER charge your system in a closed environment.
GAS OR LIQUID CHARGING?

There are two ways to charge: gas (can or cylinder up), or liquid (can or cylinder upside down). A compressor is designed to compress gas. Direct liquid charge will harm the compressor if suction pressure is not controlled. Liquid charging is faster, yet is riskier. Liquid charging should be made by professionals or under supervision. Liquid charging can be done if the suction port is away from the compressor (some compressors have the suction valve in its body).
Liquid charging can be done never exceeding a 50 PSI suction pressure. If you can't control it, charge in gas form. In cooler weather, cans may freeze. You may immerse them in water and shake them while charging.
11. Once about 2/3 of the charge has been dispensed into the system, spray water in the condenser to optimize heat exchange and speed the process. When you get the condenser wet, vent temperature is likely to raise. This is normal. You'll also note pressure drop in both gauges.
12. Once the specified amount has been dispensed, close the blue valve. Let the system run for a minute. Turn the A/C off and then the engine. Wait another minute and disconnect the couplers from the service ports. Disconnect the low side first. If you jumpered a switch, reconnect it too.
Optimum cooling performance is attained after 10 minutes of operation. Our own acceptance criteria is at least 50°F in the center vent to the driver side at idle after 10 minutes or less. Remember: cooling increases while the vehicle is in motion.
VERY IMPORTANT

Due to the physical properties and chemical composition, R134a and R12 charging amounts are different. Never, if you are retrofitting, charge the same or specified amount of R12 with R134a. If in doubt, please e-mail us. Do not use this procedure if you are using any other refrigerant. This is just for R12 or R134a. Although procedures and parameters may be similar, we do not use nor recommend alternative refrigerants.
HOW TO DETERMINE OPERATING PRESSURES


Every vehicle has its own operation parameters specification. Depending on whether or not the vehicle has a factory or an after market system, and whether it was retrofitted or is still original, among others. There is no established calculation to determine the exact operating pressures.
The low pressure (blue gauge) should be 35 or less at idle, regardless of the type of gas. Only if you're running a dual system, the low pressure may be between 45 and 50 at idle.
The high pressure, for starters, is directly related to ambient temperature: the higher the temperature, the higher the higher the pressure.
Bear in mind that dispensing a complete charge without lowering the pressures with water will result in higher readings. This is normal, and that is why you should spray water in the condenser at 2/3rds of the charge or once you have completed it. You'll note an immediate pressure drop when you spray water in the condenser.
To obtain a ballpark high side value, multiply ambient temperature by 2.2 if you have an R12 system. If you have a factory R134a system, use 2.3. To convert °C to °F, use this formula: °C X 1.8 + 32.
Remember: this is only a ballpark. If in doubt, we have factory charts to help you determine the correct pressures. Please have your vehicle's make, model, refrigerant type, and year and.
Factors like a an obstructed or very dirty radiator and condenser, weak or inoperative fan clutch, weak or inoperative radiator fan(s), either electric or mechanical, will make pressures go up and impair cooling, even in mild days.

*********************************

Long read but mistakes really stink up to ruining your just done work and parts if all wrong - beware!

Tom
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Re: 86 F-150 Dealer installed AC with newer motor

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:08 pm

Hitting at the same time Cornbinder89! I was hunting down what mostly Nacho wrote long ago,

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