Here we go again!

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Here we go again!

Postby cornbinder89 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:25 pm

The powers that be have decided to do to 134a what they did to R12. Different issues but the same response. The hole in the ozone has closed up, so may be they had a point about R12, but the amount of green house gases we emit every hr far exceeds what is in the 134a, even if it is more potent than CO2, it has a short half life.
2019 is the date for north America, 3rd world has until 2030.
The big problem this time is the replacement isn't drop in, it requires a complete re-fit. I take care of 5 vehicles, 4 of which were designed for R12 and have been retro-fitted for 134a (bigger condenser) building 4 1234y system from scratch doesn't sound like much fun!
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Re: Here we go again!

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:28 am

How are you friend?
So much of our opinions and thoughts on what products for what (anything) are OK or not are should I say "infected" by where we might call a home base meaning an area of geography that has made up our experiences.

Both of us list where we are from. I can say that inland a tad from Atlantic Ocean's direct impact of temperatures to deal with is NOT involved right where I am. Just 20-30 miles East does get moderated by ocean water temps such that it's warmer in Winter and cooler in Summer's worst - usually. Exceptions to all.

It has been in heating mode here for a while with a break expected for perhaps a week all of which has happened before. It will reach mid to high 80sF in now shorter daylight plus at a high angle so much less solar effect it won't feel like Summer heat. It can't, the ground is cold and FYI @ about 40 feet deep is the same temperature all year round no matter what the air and weather temps are! 53.7F but who would measure that? Me of course. That hasn't changed a decimal point in over 30 years precisely measured by water temp from the well I use for water.

Within 12 months of so air temps have spiked to or dropped to a range of about -20F to 108F +/- but rarely stays at those extremes more than hours not all day.

We've build (mankind) buildings with footings or foundations such that they do not heave with frozen ground as well as the better roads built so the substrate can't hold water to heave with expansion of frozen ground so stay much the same no matter what.

In short - can do without A/C totally and about 1/2 my life didn't have it at residence, vehicle or workplace. There was no air conditioning for any school I ever went to either but think there is now for many. Windows actually opened and fans in use. Ever hear of the so common item called a paper weight? That's why.

On that, try to buy a new one now made new and marked for that purpose. Good luck on that.

The skinny on it all is just speaking for myself and not getting any younger I'm much less tolerant of cold than heat which is much simpler to accomplish for living spaces than cooling is whether a building or a vehicle of any sort. Somehow warmed cold air feels better than cooled hot air still to me. I plead IDK on impact on the world over either being source of changing the "climate" of the world as a whole,

Have a great day,

Tom
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Re: Here we go again!

Postby cornbinder89 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:10 pm

I grew up near you and never had AC in the home or in a car. Out in the midwest it is a different story. I admire the old timers got the farming done in high temps with high dew points without AC.
I have AC in my trucks but don't need to idle at night to keep cool 95% of the time, likely higher. I have screens for the windows and a fan I can point into the bunk. '
I am sure glad to have it while driving however.
The total ban on 134a is going to cause a problem I think. We still have old R12 systems that are in service, and to jump to the replaement is going to require a lot of changes. One of the problems with R1234yf is it breaks down into a acid strong enough to etch glass, I can see where that is going to cause a few problems!
I wish they would just phase in new stuff without banning the old for repairs. Time will eventually take care of the problem. How many SO2 or Methl-cloride systems do you see? They were never banned and are all but gone. Read an article about a man who restored a GE Monitor top 'fridge and was still able to get and use Methel-cloride for refrigerant (R40 I believe) .
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Re: Here we go again!

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:04 am

Dare I say it's more about politics and paten rights than anything else? Force something to be new and mess everyone up over something we need.

We (as humans) have some priorities all messed up. One good bomb, volcano, tidal wave, earthquake, forest fire and a list like that each one more to worry about than a refrigerant yet it gets wailed on.

Been thru Iowa where I-80 has cut off from I-90 on way West many, many time. None of the vehicles had A/C I was using but by chance most of my routine run found me in your state at night and vehicles all had vents and floor vents so if moving along never a problem.

Metro Boston can have a traffic snag like any place just more likely and it doesn't need to even be a hot day you need something. Too noisy too with windows open.

Been here for ages since converting R-12 to 134a was the top topic it seems and have done many with no real problems on systems that were also known to work and be worth it.

IDK - at some point with messing with cars and what can and can't be used to make or must be used for certain things including A/C the bubble has to break. Techs and shops expected to keep up with tools and equipment and customers ticked off at costs but allow this to happen in a way.

You did say you lived here once. It hasn't changed that much just more people. I've spent much time in school, Colorado, Denver to be exact where I had no A/C and Summer or close sunlight alone at altitude is dangerously strong and hot.

Time in Louisiana, Fl and TX in Summers too where humidity is the game. OMG - never that much for me more than an few hours but have had home A/C for ages so perhaps don't think about it too much.

Moved to Hawaii once! OMG had a short term apartment expecting to find better just buying time but that time gave up short of good work and high costs didn't match but loved the venture. No heat or A/C not even screens required where I was! Back again and rented a whole house with no heat, A/C or screens again either just not needed year round. That's a mind bender by itself to me.

Back to the subject. I don't get it and don't know why people are convinced that something that is known to work is so dangerous yet remains so unproven! R-12 exactly has the highest possible caloric rating and range of use than anything anyone ever made - used in freezers, refrigeration for everything, vehicles, residential and commercial buildings with long lasting set ups. Doesn't leak as much and much more rubber friendly with about edible mineral oils only needed but guess it wasn't toxic enough so let's change it. OMG - what happened?

The big picture - we are a world with 1,000s of problems to work on so for the life of me can't figure out why a refrigerant is even on any list.

However in US especially we move everything quickly by trucking and rail even if origins of whatever items is from a ship also at some point. Foods in particular couldn't be transported all around so well or at all.

*********************************************************

Topic is viable and keeping the site active if nothing else.

It still gets 90% new unseen member or posts are just spam which is a constant problem.

For now it just makes this site slow and harder for legitimate newcomers with their questions and opinions including technical assistance.

Carry on here as long as it can last,

Tom
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Re: Here we go again!

Postby cornbinder89 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:13 pm

I think with hermitically sealed compressors you would see original charge last for many decades, it is only mobile systems with shaft seals and flexible lines that CAN leak with time. I bet more is lost due incidents (I refuse to call them accidents, too often they are preventable) than leaks. With the condenser the first thing to take the hit, it will be the 1st to leak.
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Re: Here we go again!

Postby cornbinder89 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:01 am

I read on at least one website that there is no retro-fitting for R134a systems. But that info was several year old.
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Re: Here we go again!

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:27 am

Ugg! Already out there is accessories that don't use a belt driven anything nor shaft seals! Power steering is going electric and used now.

Forget by what year but the law passed for CAFE standards to close to double coming along - drivetrains and room shrink again, first will be seal it all up and be just relying on electrically run disposable junk.

This doesn't seem very practical or possible for the super great need for powerful trucking transportation of about everything at some point must be transported by a trailer hauled by a truck - semi type something no matter where it came from or what it is for.

Just a tiny bit a reality - we aren't close to ready for something this drastic, Tom
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Re: Here we go again!

Postby cornbinder89 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:20 pm

I'm kinda looking into a Nissan Leaf, and I haven't looked, but they may run a sealed electric compressor, it would only make sense too. Same with other hybrids. 3 phase with a VFD (variable frequency drive) means you could run the compressor at just the right speed to meet the heat load. No need to over size the compressor or have to store refrigerant or cycle the compressor because engine speed is too high or too low for the demand. I guess some A/C window units in OZ and the pacific rim are being made this way. Just a matter of time before they show up here. But the electronics are the weak link, once they go, not cost effective to repair.
Hermitically sealed compressors can last a long, long time. Like I posted earlier, there was a guy who restored a Monitor top GE fridge from the 20's or 30's that the original compressor still worked.
I think it would depend on how well they were made from the get-go whether they will last.
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