2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

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2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby costajus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:58 pm

Hi everyone - 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Correctly charged with R134a - ambient temperature was about 25C today.

The high pressure side was going up to 400psi and temperature up to 80C. This in my experience is usually due to a faulty fan so no airflow through the condenser.

This car has no electric fan at the front, just one on the waterpump behind the coolant radiator with 5 wires going to it and it looked like it was freewheeling and hardly casuing a draft.

I told the customer he needs to get the fan sorted but he has spoken to a Range Rover specialist who reckons the fans never run fast on tickover and has suggested the compressor is faulty to him.

Please could someone shed some light?

I have seen plenty of cars with non operational electric fans that have these exact symptoms but I am not a Range Rover "expert" like the one the customer has also spoken to.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:53 pm

Not sure of this vehicle's set up at all as it could be all different than ones sold to the US or Canada?

A key question is why do you know the refrigerant charge is correct? It's going to totally matter.

400 PSI is actually a tad above the cut out point - way too high. If fan doesn't work that's still too high just in my opinion for 25C or ~ high 70sF ambient temperature.

Clearly it can't transfer heat either just lack of airflow or condenser clogged up depending on what may have happened or replaced already to the system.

For the moment just common sense if a compressor can put out 400 PSI why is it suspect of being bad yet?

IDK what type of fan you have with 5 wires to it run off the engine but you could duplicate heat transfer with hose water on condenser and see if it all behaves then know this is all about lack of airflow pretty much,

Tom
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby costajus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:04 pm

I replaced the condenser 4 weeks ago. Customer called to complain he had intermitent problems so went back today and started by regassing so I knew it had the correct charge. Condenser is spotless as it is new.

Hoping someone can advise about the fan - there was practically zero air flow.
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby GM Tech » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:33 pm

A compressor that can generate 400psi is NOT bad.....put a garden hose to condenser- see if that helps--if so you need a new fan clutch
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:47 pm

Hose trick should almost certainly work and this vehicle's pressure and performance come into line.

You said "upon tickover" ((I take that as initial start up)) fan doesn't run. It's so computer controlled no doubt that if not hot, moving along quickly enough AND pressures are NOT high enough wouldn't need to but only for a few seconds with A/C requested.

See what watering down condenser does! Then if known charge is correct it may have had a failure you don't know about and condenser looking good on the outside means nothing. The passages can't tolerate any debris on almost all,

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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby costajus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:50 pm

Thanks for the replies.

I should have tried a hose on the condenser while I was there today, I have done that before and pretty sure that would have brought the pressure and temperature down.

I agree that high pressure should mean the compressor is fine - if it was knackered you would get poor pressure on the high side and unusually high pressure on the low side.

The fan DOES spin but very slowly so you put your hand near it and you don't feel a breeze.

The problem is the customer has been told by a Range Rover specialist/expert that the fan DOES NOT spin fast on tickover and I am not an expert on Range Rovers but I do know from experience that high pressure/temp in the high side usually means no airflow. I was hoping someone might be able to say whether the Range Rover expert is talking nonsense or not?

Thanks again - any input useful.
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:59 am

English to English translation? "Tickover" - BY THAT YOU MEAN "WHEN FIRST STARTED UP AND RUNNING FOR SEVERAL SECONDS TO A MINUTE OR SO?

Let's not get caught up with confused words we (speak for myself) don't use for that period of time.

When engine is cold meaning just same temperature at outside air or close and just started up fans driven by the water pumps use a fan clutch. Assorted types - plain temperature sensing spring which makes it grab and pull more air and others still sense temperature and more such as high side pressure if A/C is requested and compressor is engaged would quickly require enough air flow to bring that pressure to a normal range which is about two and a half times the temperature in Fahrenheit is about where you would expect. Not this 400 PSI! That is right near the point of the system shutting down meaning disengaging compressor.

This would be controlled by an engine management computer to maximize all things possible. Not to overuse the fan when NOT needed AND allow for maximum engagement for the most air flow the fan can do at the RPM (revolutions per minute) of the engine.

By just the speed of air if driving along at a speed of about 40 MPH (miles per hour) a fan at all usually isn't needed and would cool any sensors and release the fan clutch either gradually or in set amounts on this vehicle.

Long by model year 2006 assorted vehicles would store codes for a circuit that failed for many operating functions so a code reading is suggested that can read the full range of codes including codes "pending" that have noticed an issue but not necessarily enough or meant to turn on a warning light yet.

With or without any code reading information you need to know why this fan is so slow or inadequate to pull the correct or most amount of air thru grille hence cooling the condenser.

That could be an electrical failure at a connection or any reason those FIVE wires do not read or send correct information.

Just the raw basics no air conditioning concept would allow such high pressure without a problem.
The water on condenser would cool it much more than air could alone. The pressures would drop and if the system was otherwise correct blow cool air into the cabin of the vehicle.

Who is going to decide (customer's always decide on fixing something or not) on what to do next for a fix as it can't stay with pressure on high side that high and work properly?

If some RANGE ROVER "expert" technician is so sure the fan is operating normally with the conditions and pressure you've stated I'll say that the technician is wrong.

Why is there a dispute and why are two technicians (you and the other) both working on the same problem? You also have a customer who doesn't know who to believe.

Someone is going to need some clear data on the specific vehicle with wires to a fan clutch (somehow?) what wires are supposed to do what. A diagram may be necessary. You may need to pay for software for the specific vehicle and should own software for the vehicles you expect to work on. If the vehicle is not included in what you have for technical information either get it or don't take on work on that type of vehicle.

I've tried to use the most mainstream English (the language) as possible and avoided acronyms for you to avoid confusion.

You really shouldn't have to guess at what is wrong with this unless no choices. I would expect this fan clutch to be quite costly so being sure is the professional approach to the fix,

Tom
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby cornbinder89 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:13 am

We are two countries separated by a common language! Tick over is idle. I'd say lack of airflow over the condenser. Hose it down and it will prove or disprove the point.
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby costajus » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:27 am

Sorry for any confusion. When I said tickover that is the same as idle - engine running on it's own at about 800rpm. Also engine was up to operating temperature as the customer had recently driven it. To correctly read fault codes on Jaguar / Land Rover vehicles you need the correct software (Autologic I think it is called) and I have never needed it in all these years until now and it costs £1,200 per year.

I can try cooling the condenser with a hose, I guess the next step would be a code read / diagnosis by an independent Land Rover garage to work out whether it is the fan itself or some other electronic issue to do with the fan.
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:27 am

Great - On the right track. If this job is yours just add on costs for reading codes or find out if you can't buy just one edition for just that vehicle if that helps YOU.

The water on condenser will show you the system works and cools properly and totally believe it's the fan at fault possibly a wild guess about £300 - £400 pounds.

Today's price/exchange was $1 USD = .76 £ or reversed 1 £ = $1.30 USD.

That just so we know what costs we are talking about.

I have no reason to believe fan shouldn't be pulling air at least moderately hard at 800RPM with engine warmed up.

I would guess the clutch as said but could be calculating several inputs - engine RPM, engine temperature, vehicle speed and possibly a WOT or "Wide Open Throttle" cut out for power robbing things? Can't know those details for each vehicle.

Just common sense if the clutch itself grabs on electrical inputs it has to be "brushes" (electrical carbon like parts touching the rotating parts much like a horn on a steering wheel) or magnetic pulses sensing speeds of rotation or combination of all?

It's totally understood YOU don't want to pay for the code reading ability for just one even just a couple vehicles per year so if YOU are reduced to some educated guessing and the costs are high enough or YOU are not sure enough I would let this job pass onto the dealer or subcontract the work in whole or partially at a discount to YOU marked up to the customer as you are taking on responsibility for being correct plus warranty on the work for some many miles or an amount of time.

Have your paperwork in order and understood by customer.

It seems like you are well on your way to a proper fix.

Best of luck,

Tom
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby costajus » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:59 pm

Here is an interesting update that has left me scratching my head!

Customer called today - no cold air from when he started the car this morning. So he arranged to call in. When he got here he told me he had stopped at McDonalds and there was a loud bang which he could feel through the floor of the car. After that the air con started working again.

I have no idea what could cause that. I thought perhaps moisture causing a blockage so I vacuumed it, filled with OFN then vacuumed again and refilled with R134a. Pressure was getting to about 230 - 255 psi (hot day again about 28C) then the fan was speeding up and you could really feel the air flow which wasn't happening the other day. Pressure would drop to about 150 160 and the cycle would start again. So all seemed good.

He has it booked into the specialist tomorrow so they can read the codes etc but it looks like I was correct - the fan does speed up when needed (assuming it is working)

If anyone can offer an explanation as to why a loud bang would fix the lack of cold air I would be both amazed and grateful!
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:39 am

This A/C system needed to be disabled and not used till this was fixed! A compressor isn't designed to put out 400 PSI and should be shutting down on its own but not always on time. A bang noise now unknown I think I'd check belt(s) and things driven by same belt as the compressor. That's stressing out all other items as well beyond anything to do with air conditioning at all.

May have said but high side can read TWO AND A HALF TIMES THE TEMP* OF AIR COMING IN THROUGH THE CONDENSER AS IN FAHRENHEIGHT! Celsius to me is neat and tidy way to call what temp things are vs Fahrenheit but the range and #s fractionalize better in "F*" not "C*"

You are seeing pressures at a given moment not all driving situations. Many systems will blow out excessive pressure in hopes to save blowing up components that can't tolerate those pressures. It's risking everything in it that contains refrigerant to allow this to continue.

Not sure but would probably know charge is correct and unplug the compressor on this and tie away the plug out of harm's way. Using this for A/C is just making it worse to serious damages at this point,

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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby costajus » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:16 pm

Thanks for the replies. I did wonder if there was a blow off valve somewhere and I DID tell him NOT to use it until the specialist had looked at it but he didn't listen.

Apparently they suffer wiring faults on the early RR Sports so perhaps some wiring has been stopping the fan coming on at the faster speed. Hopefully the specialist has found and sorted it.
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:27 pm

Let us know how it all turned out and what the source problem was for archives if nothing else.

Good luck,

Tom
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Re: 2006 Range Rover Sport V6 Diesel

Postby costajus » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:24 pm

Hi Tom,

I will do IF he contacts me again to update me.

All the best and thanks for all your input.

Justyn.
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