OIl change/charge

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OIl change/charge

Postby huntindog » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:58 pm

I am installing an everco compressor #58098 in place of the GM A-6
The A-6 has an oil sump that I believe holds about 3 oz. The everco has no sump.. My stock system specs 10oz of mineral oil (I am using r12)
Should I reduce the oil charge because ot the lack of a sump on the everco? Use the full amount? Split the difference?
If it matters, my system holds 48oz of r12.

Next question:
This new compressor came with 3oz of oil installed already... But it is the wrong type. How do I remove all of the pag oil so I can put the mineral oil in?

My off the cuff plan is to drain the pag and install mineral oil. shake it around some, drain and repeat. Not sure how many times I should do this, or is their a better way.

TIA
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:22 pm

I just Googled the brand and part # for info. Came up with Autozone selling this thing.........

http://www.autozone.com/cooling-heating ... 2124_3513/

Says there compatible additive used ICE-32 is OK with R-12 or 134a. Doesn't mention oil in it at all and it's their site usually full of mistake too.

So: If you know your oil total capacity is 10oz and this thing now isn't included I'd probably still add 2oz not counting waste of spinning thru oil in a new/reman if so prior to installing it.

Hey - since no new R-12 vehicles were sold after model year 1993 this is now so old you can't really have a strong clue of how much oil is in it at all by now.

I plain don't know of a "dipstick" for refrigerant oil by the oz. unless you start from totally empty it's guessing totally.

When a compressor that must have failed you should know or see some evidence of a mess or something as a clue how much to add per component of A/C system you are replacing.

Can only be guesswork as if it blew out suddenly or just slowly leaked you really don't know at all.

It shouldn't harm a 10 oz system for oil to be up or down a couple ounces of oil IMO only. AYOR - there's no 100% guess that's going to fit and be known perfect. That's my guess for you. You can guess better if you have a strong history on this vehicle,

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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby huntindog » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:42 am

System is now apart, totally flushed and ready for assembly.. So there is no oil in it. I called the tech line and he said that the oil in the compressor was NOT compatible with r12. (it has a sticker stating that 3oz is inside)
He was not helpful on how to get the pag oil out of it. He just kept saying to drain it.
This is my big concern. I want that oil totally out so it will not cause a problem.

I am totally on the fence as far as the oil charge goes... The tech guy was no help at all... He just kept saying that the spec is the spec, do not short the oil or the compressor won't lube properly.. Then he said that you can have too much as well... I think he was reading from a script.

Is there a preferred ratio of mineral oil to R12?

When I used this same compressor on a 134A conversion, I talked to someone at tech that seemed a lot more knowledgeable. He said that 8oz is what they reccomended... This was the same system, just using 134A
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:38 pm

Oh boy - If there own tech support that sells this compressor isn't much help hard for me or us even more so.

Agree on total oil capacity about 8 ounces. It's close enough IMO and I mean opinion on an OE system that listed 10 ounces.

Is there a ratio or some standard? Good question - IDK. Oils travel along thru the system and settle where they will when shut down. Exactly how much is where each time would depend on how long it was run and even angle of how parked I would think all factors so should by design allow for this.

Some place compressors low in a system and known to choke on oil if way overfilled - just hear of that.

At a loss so drain away and refill with mineral is the suggestion. Keep track now that you know system is totally empty this is important info. You can add more but not likely to remove an exact amount without starting all over.

Is it worth another call to tech support for another person you are more convinced has a clue about the product THEY made?

Probably yes,

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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby Cusser » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:10 pm

Back in fall 2014 the Sanden compressor on my 1988 B2200 truck seized after 11 years of use; that compressor was an Air Pro rebuilt unit, and I used R-12. I've owned this truck since 1994.

Anyway, I drained that compressor, essentially zero oil remained (guess why it seized - but cooling had been fine the night before). I bought a brand-new Sanden 708 compressor of same model which did contain oil, and took a drop in to my employment place, and used FTIR spectroscopy and confirmed that the oil was PAG, not mineral oil (just like the rebuilt unit 11 years prior). So just like 11 years before that - I drained out the PAG oil, added about 6 oz. R-12 type mineral oil, turned the compressor through 10 revolutions with a wrench, then drained that out. Then I repeated that flush again, then drained that out and then added the appropriate amount of R-12 type mineral oil. Then I installed the compressor, evacuated, added my R-12 (I had previously backflushed with solvent and dried the high-pressure line and condenser, and installed a new drier).
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby huntindog » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:00 am

update: I called 4 seasons again. I got the same tech as before. He has a very distinct accent/voice, so I am sure it was him.
I did not let on that I was a previous caller, but just asked my questions. This time he did not hesitate. He said that since the new compressor did not have an oild sume the the sytem should have 7 oz. And that putting in more would flood the condenser and make for poor cooling.

I did not call him out on our previous conversation. I figure that maybe 4 seasons became aware of it, either by reading it here, or monitoring there phones. Or maybe the tech just asked some questions around the watercooler about it and learned something..... Or maybe he recognized me and is playing with me. Dunno. I tend to think the former though and will likely use the 7 oz...

One thing that has me puzzeled though is that he insisted that the entire 7 oz shold go in the compressor. I have always believed that it should be split up.

Thoughts?
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby Cusser » Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:25 am

huntindog wrote:One thing that has me puzzeled though is that he insisted that the entire 7 oz should go in the compressor. I have always believed that it should be split up.

Thoughts?


The refrigerant carries the oil charge throughout the AC system. For the 2005 Yukon compressor I did in 2015 and the 1988 Mazda B2200 compressor I did in 2014, I put the oil into the compressor, installed the compressor, then rotated the compressor with a wrench at least 10 times to get excess oil out of the compressor piston/cylinder chamber for the remainder of the installation.
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby huntindog » Sat Jun 18, 2016 6:30 pm

Cusser wrote:
huntindog wrote:One thing that has me puzzeled though is that he insisted that the entire 7 oz should go in the compressor. I have always believed that it should be split up.

Thoughts?


The refrigerant carries the oil charge throughout the AC system. For the 2005 Yukon compressor I did in 2015 and the 1988 Mazda B2200 compressor I did in 2014, I put the oil into the compressor, installed the compressor, then rotated the compressor with a wrench at least 10 times to get excess oil out of the compressor piston/cylinder chamber for the remainder of the installation.


I understand that...But I believe (and my factory manual states) there is an advantage to splitting it up. It is probably a small advantage, but since it is usually easy to do... I do it.

The puzzling part about the techs assertion is that he normally does reccomend splitting it up... But since there is only 7 ozs going in, he wants it all in the compressor to make sure it gets lubricated,,

Makes no sense to me, since you gotta rotate the compressor by hand to pump the oil out before you start it..
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:12 am

Understand something: Oil you put in and spin a new/rebuilt compressor on the bench for some lube for first engagement if nothing else it will give it some time to not burn out totally right away.

After that when and once a system is working oil ends up where it feels like it and how or what angle it's operating and when it's parked and shut off. It will move again when engaged not stay where you put it when putting the system together.

Too much can choke a compressor up stream and too much down stream may take to long to go around the loop back to lube compressor so general suggestions will be more upstream and less downstream starting from scratch.

If or when using compressor to draw in final charge you have moments of risk time where lube isn't perfect so be fast. Best would always be to charge with a machine that puts the exact known charge in a system without it running at all not always possible.

In short. Oil the compressor first and give it oil ready as soon as possible for start up by where you put it. Oil doesn't move until the system can compress gas to a liquid and go round the loop back to compressor or it's running too dry of oil for that time,

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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby ACProf » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:26 am

The primary facts about the oil in an AC system is:
(1) The ONLY thing that needs oil is the compressor.
(2) The compressor gets its lubrication from the oil carried by the REFRIGERANT.


If you force the compressor to run in a system with low or no refrigerant its like draining the oil out of the engine and the starting it up.

Another fact is that is REGARDLESS of where the oil is installed, after 10-20 seconds of operation (as TOM mentions above) the oil is carried around and dispersed through out the system by the refrigerant flow.

An ounce here, an ounce there, isn't going to improve anything but is a waste of time and effort. Car manufactures put he entire load of oil in the compressor and let the system deal with it.
Sometimes you just have to accept things at faith value!
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby huntindog » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:16 am

Update #2:
Because of the differing recommendations from the same tech, I emailed and called 4 seasons. The email was sent in the evening, and I referred them to this thread so they could read it. In the morning I called 4 seasons and told the lady my story, and that I did not want to talk to that tech again... But someone who was more knowledgeable. She said that she would talk to the product manager. I later got a call back and was told that the proper amount of oil was 8oz.

When I got home and checked my emails, another person from 4 seasons had replied with his answer... 8oz

So I am now pretty confident that 8oz is the proper amount.
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:45 am

Been said here that a system made for 10oz. that an ounce or two up or down isn't going to show up or matter that much.

Where folks get in trouble with oil - even techs is when you continually do "educated" guessing from item by item work, a blowout repaired and guess the amount to add component by component.

The web is full of bullcrap that there's some exact something for everything - it isn't quite that simple.

8oz by them and can agree with info on this thread is an OK answer.

ACProf recently chimed in and agreed with that.

In short you try to keep track over some years from when known correct. Any changes you guess what you lost. Measure what comes OUT of items when replaced, replace that and an ounce for many things.

Repairs you look for evidence if something failed. Say a chunk of steel road debris went thru your condenser while operating the oil mess would be all over the place - you make a guess or start from zero again.

**********************************************
Think of oil in you engine's oil pan for example. That you have a dipstick for. Most work in a range of 1 qt. up or down from the "full" mark. It can't know if you park at an angle with headlight pointing at the moon or what and accommodates that to a point. It will say check when level after some time to settle to pan. Note "level" is a key word.

So - if you suspect you end up with too much there are symptoms of that. Way too low compressors are noisy usually but don't worry they wont be for long as you'll be replacing that one soon and all that goes with it.

The end all decision is yours what to do. There's just no incentive (here many years now) for any regulars to purposely mislead you.

Typos, misunderstood or mis-read posts happen to do mistake that are just that if ever none intended.

Know the site is free to use staffed by some and some just passing thru all volunteering their thoughts and experiences.

About as simple as that as far as this site goes,

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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby aquartlow » Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:44 pm

Just joined this forum, wanted to know how the 58098 compressor/R12 combo worked out? I will be replacing my leaking A6 with the same 58098 in a '79 Ranchero that has a complete A/C system retrofitted from a '76 Thunderbird(worked excellent prior to A6 front seal issues). Will also be using R12 and #525 AC Delco mineral oil for lubrication. Thank you in advance, Todd
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby cornbinder89 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:40 pm

Why not a re-man A-6? Cheap enough and nothing to change. I have one from O'Rilley's that has been on a semi for over a year with no issues, it sees more use in a year than most cars do in 8.
I know re-mans have a bad rep, but sometimes you have to take a chance. I don't know if mine was built on a "good day" or why it has lasted. I am happy with it.
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby aquartlow » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:36 pm

Deleted, sorry for the double-post
Last edited by aquartlow on Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby aquartlow » Sun Jul 17, 2016 1:10 pm

cornbinder89 wrote:Why not a re-man A-6? Cheap enough and nothing to change. I have one from O'Rilley's that has been on a semi for over a year with no issues, it sees more use in a year than most cars do in 8.
I know re-mans have a bad rep, but sometimes you have to take a chance. I don't know if mine was built on a "good day" or why it has lasted. I am happy with it.


I actually did use a re-manned A6 but the front seal failed within 24 hrs of recharging with R12. Backstory: The vehicle sat for a while during a complete resto and the a/c system slowly lost pressure due to a lower condenser fitting leak(the fitting wouldn't come off, even with heat, so I broke it during the "loosening" process). Once engine/trans was installed I found that the PS header was too close to the evaporator case and it melted, so I removed the entire evap assembly to fix the case and to check the evaporator core, damper doors, vacuum motors and reseal it to the firewall. Since the condenser was shot I decided to buy/install an NOS condenser as well as a re-man compressor, I had the POA valve checked, new hoses made and new expansion valve as well as new receiver/drier installed. I put #525 mineral oil into the system at various points during the reconnection process, vacuumed the system, let it sit overnight and then recharged it with R12. All was great, for 24 hrs, the next day I drove the vehicle and found that the front seal was spitting oil/refrigerant(which I realize is fairly common for an A6) but not in the amounts I was seeing. I left the system alone for about 18 months until now, system still has pressure, just haven't run the compressor after finding the leak. I really like the A6, it is a tank, but just don't want to lose anymore R12 if I can help it. I have the 58098 a/c compressor, so I am already vested in it(including a custom rear bracket I had to fab up yesterday), along with a new drier and expansion valve. Here is the vehicle I am working with:
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:05 am

Sorry for now looks like double posts of the same content. One not approved and should have been automatic but was in my view?

About remans: Higher failure rate IMO+Experience than new totally. Any can fail, many from improper prep for installation new or not.

If NOS A-6 found it's probably too old even in box at this point?

A/C is full of risks too often found out even when everything done right - tough game,

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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby aquartlow » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:02 pm

Tom Greenleaf wrote:Sorry for now looks like double posts of the same content. One not approved and should have been automatic but was in my view?

About remans: Higher failure rate IMO+Experience than new totally. Any can fail, many from improper prep for installation new or not.

If NOS A-6 found it's probably too old even in box at this point?

A/C is full of risks too often found out even when everything done right - tough game,

Tom


Totally agree about the risks involved, tried hard to reduce them when possible. It does look like the new compressor will work(dimensionally, anyhow) in the A6's place, although I did have to modify the stock A6 rear bracket due to the port locations of the new unit, nothing a MIG welder, some 3/16 flat stock and a flap wheel on a grinder can't fix. Thank you for your reply.
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby huntindog » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:29 pm

aquartlow wrote:Just joined this forum, wanted to know how the 58098 compressor/R12 combo worked out? I will be replacing my leaking A6 with the same 58098 in a '79 Ranchero that has a complete A/C system retrofitted from a '76 Thunderbird(worked excellent prior to A6 front seal issues). Will also be using R12 and #525 AC Delco mineral oil for lubrication. Thank you in advance, Todd


It bolted up with no issues. Too early to tell on the long term durability... They say they tested it to 50,000 miles... That is not a lot in AZ where we use AC much of the year.. My old A6 went over 20 years untouched... Did have to add freon some towards the end.

I looked at the A6 offerings from Autozone and Oriellys. Both made for Four Seasons. They did not pass my visual inspection. One looked like it had been drug down the road and then been painted. The other ones clutch looked to be ready to break any time.

Now MAYBE they would have worked out just fine... But I just didn't get a good feeling looking them over. So the new A10 is my default choice.
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Re: OIl change/charge

Postby aquartlow » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:53 pm

huntindog wrote:
aquartlow wrote:Just joined this forum, wanted to know how the 58098 compressor/R12 combo worked out? I will be replacing my leaking A6 with the same 58098 in a '79 Ranchero that has a complete A/C system retrofitted from a '76 Thunderbird(worked excellent prior to A6 front seal issues). Will also be using R12 and #525 AC Delco mineral oil for lubrication. Thank you in advance, Todd


It bolted up with no issues. Too early to tell on the long term durability... They say they tested it to 50,000 miles... That is not a lot in AZ where we use AC much of the year.. My old A6 went over 20 years untouched... Did have to add freon some towards the end.

I looked at the A6 offerings from Autozone and Oriellys. Both made for Four Seasons. They did not pass my visual inspection. One looked like it had been drug down the road and then been painted. The other ones clutch looked to be ready to break any time.

Now MAYBE they would have worked out just fine... But I just didn't get a good feeling looking them over. So the new A10 is my default choice.


Thank you so much for your reply, sorry to post pics and such on your thread, really needed to hear if this A6 alternative works as it should or intended. Since you are using R12, how does the 58098 cool compared to the A6, been too long since mine was running so I have no "fresh" memories to rely upon when I get mine up and running. Thanks again, Todd
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