new condenser installed, now got major issues

Moderators: Nacho, Tom Greenleaf, ACProf, acsource

new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:31 am

HI. I have a 1999 chrysler sebring convertible, JXi, 2.5L, 130k miles, and the ac had a problem 3 months ago with the freon(r134) leaking slowly. Then a month ago it leaked al the way out and when I put some in, with some dye, it leaked out in a day as well.
Heres what I did. Installed more dye to hopefully find the leak but I couldnt find it anywhere. So I looked at the condenser and it was beat up all to you know what. I ordered a spectra brand condenser, 91 dollars, and put it in today. Also out in a new expansion valve and 3 weeks ago I out in the receiver drier. Heres whats going on:
The low side will only draw a vac up to about -18 or so. The high side pegs all the way to the furthest negative number that the gauge has. The low side line gets ice cold when I went to put some freon w dye in it today to try to locate leak. The high side got real hot on the line that locks into the new condenser byt after the receiver drier, its doesnt get hot like they usually do in these cars. The can of freon gets ice cold, the low side line gets ice cold. But its not really taking the freon/dye too good now after the condenser was installed today,
The only way I could get the low side port to start sucking freon was to out a oaoer clip into the relay to jump the compressor but usually after the compressor is hot jumped, I can put the relay back in within a few seconds and It will run on its own as there will be enough freon in it by then. Well, it never really did that today. Its like it wants to work, and better than ever before it seems like but theres something wrong that I cant figure out this time. I usually fix all the ac issues in all the cars around here but I'm not as good as a pro y no means.
And the vac will only go to 18 or so on the low side, all the way on high side. (Or did I already say that??) Sorry so long! I'm in a confusing bind here and dont really know where to start troubleshooting. Is my vac machine broke. I doubt that. I'm sure theres some major leak or blockage or something!
Thanks for any guidance!!
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:56 am

Just some notes and comments on this car.

Old - alone not the issue. Problems are highly likely that a product was used to salvage a down system with not pure products or sealers now the whole problem but worse.

Chrysler's were already running A/C controls thru computer controls and should have self shut down from your observations.

Most common initial problems included evaporators in dash first.

Could be impractical to fix this at all by age and design! Not encouraging cost wise vs vehicle value now IMO,

T
MetroWest, Boston
Image
______________________________
User avatar
Tom Greenleaf
 
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Marlborough, MA. USA
Favorite Refrigerant: R-12+134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:33 pm

Yes sir, it would self shut down no matter what if I tried to install Freon and some dye from that part you put dye in and pop it on in front of the freon, then install. It wouldn't take as the compressor wouldn't start up, but I used the paper clip where the relay goes to hard wire it so to speak, to run like that so as to take the freon/dye. Then maybe find the leak but I'm starting to think its the evap myself.
The p/owner I bought it from had an after market rad, condenser, who knows what else but it was very cold. Coldest I've ever seen an ac! That was 2 years ago. Last year it made it through summer. This year, leaks in 2 days. The heat stopped working all that well coming out of winter just now too but?...
I can get the evap from AZ for like $60.

The little vacuum machine I have was smoking that white smoke it always does when I vac out a system but 10x worse! Could that have been from having a new condenser maybe? I cant find the leak, Thinking a good sniffer is in the budget as I should have 1 anyway. The dye trick doesn't always work. Any sniffers better than others? Is H/F's semi cheap sniffer anything? Thanks for HELPING very much!!
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:32 am

This is where I'm at now. When I installed the new expansion valve, the block little gasket had fallen a little and I crushed one end of it when I tightened those 2 long screw/bolts that hold it to the firewall, which behind that is the evaporator. So I installed it back on there with a new gasket the correct way(not crunching the left side of it)!
Now that that's corrected, I also put another line from compressor to the x valve, a used one(I got a lot of parts from 3 of these cars in the back of the shop) That would be the bigger Low side line with the port on it for charging system with r134a. I then installed another high side line from the compressor to the receiver drier. It has the plug in on it that the pig tail goes into.

When I went to run a vacuum, it did lot better this time. But when I closed the high side valves to the gauges, then wiggle the blue low side valve at its port, the vac stops shooting all that cloud and actually does right! Weird. And its probably that I'm just shutting off the high side and when I wiggle low side valve to manifold, it does right and stops the white cloud so bad because I'm wiggling it to the point where its not hooked up to the schrader in the low side port somehow. That or the low side port needs to be replaced/repaired with that 10 dollar kit from AZ or something...Who knows! This is not how the last 10 a/c's I've got going prior to this one went.

And lastly, when I tried to install a small can of cheap Freon with a little bit of dye in it, the low side got ICE COLD, quick! As well as the freon can! And the high side got a tiny bit warm. Which had me hoping but to o avail!
So to sum it up, when I install the freon, the low side from the receiver to expansion valve gets frosty ICE cold, FAST, along with the can as well.
The high side line doesn't get hot-hot like its supposed to do. I am able to force the compressor to come on so that it will take the dye with a paper clip in the relay. It does pull a vac up to 18 or so by itself but, it goes all the way to -28 to -30(it bottoms out like all the systems do when I pull a vacuum)it goes all way to where its supposed to go, and it stops white cloud world, when I wiggle the blue low side valve while machine is on.
One more thing, the compressor actually ran by itself after I out the relay back in one time, after filling it, but that didn't last long!
THANKS FOR GUIDANCE/SKILL/KNOWLEDGE!!
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:19 am

Wow - Lots to take in with what you've said already!

Let's sort out some basics that are imperative for A/C operation to work. Before a read on charging procedures know that the enemy is moisture and non condensable air introduced to a system. Always be aware if touching it with anything involving refrigerant to know what is air (hose of gauges included) and what is pressure or vacuum.

Air always has some moisture in it - just know that and under full vacuum moisture can't exist just trust me on that. You do need to achieve a full vacuum that holds and charge into that with knowledge of the weight of charge required and how much you are putting in as a base line or things aren't going to be able to work as they should so that's critical to know is correct first.

Hope this bit shows as a link for you. Worth printing out or archiving for use or read later but is fundamental basics useful info.

>>>> http://aircondition.com/tech/questions/ ... Procedures

Hope that just click or look for it above in the "Knowledge Base" section above - full of good info.

Notes again:
* Easy on 'paper clip' tricks on these cars (Mopars) in particular which are a weak hands on brand for me personally but aware many risks and quirks of them. If you jump something wrong you really can blow computer controls at great expense to get back to even work on the thing again. Computer controls do enable compressor to engage and can shut it down when conditions from sensors sent to it are out of perimeters. It also probably has a two speed fan set up which will engage for either engine temp at the set temp or the high pressure it's reading suggesting it's too hot for plain air speed thru grille to do the job alone. Of course not sitting still.

* Almost all vehicles will take in enough refrigerant into a full vacuum which is 29.92Hg at sea level out of even the small cans to allow compressor to engage which allows for the suction side to draw in the rest of the charge keeping can warm is also its pressure and know that pressure will move from the higher to the lower pressure of what's connected. Warm water can help or stop and warm the can somehow. Perfect is the high end machine that pushes in exact charge by itself after it pulls a vacuum without much more than punching in the specs for the vehicle! Hey - not all will have any access to such equipment.

? What is you vacuum device? If it can't pull a full vacuum even on a gauge set without a vehicle involved it's no good and not for A/C. Said 29.92Hg is full vacuum. That will change ~ 1 point per 1,000 ft. of elevation you are working in BTW. Testing my memory know that ambient air pressure is about 14.7 PSI of pressure we live in so in a state of vacuum that's all the system is sealing OUT that must hold ~ 350 PSI of pressure in operation without blowing out failsafe blow. Heat will dramatically increase pressure of refrigerants.

* Observations must be known for temperatures. All of them. Air temp thru the grille is what the system knows not the forecast for your area or a thermos you just read someplace else. It's frequent hot over where you may be working all matters. You also want to know the output temp at center vent of panel inside.

* Leaks are the #1 reason for needing anything touched in automotive A/C and the cause of subsequent problems. Know that oil in with the charge does NOT circulate to lube compressor until the system is capable of condensing refrigerant so it will run a compressor dry which in turn burns it out throwing debris thru the system and the problems just get out of hand.

* Leak finding: It's all things you can use to find them. I prefer electronic sniffers and test those by brand and features on even a butane lighter, cap off of your car's system will set one off even taken away from the vehicle for a while there's some still in the thing. Wind messes them up - know that.
Dyes: Some vehicles come with it in factory fill. UV or just by sight is evidence. Beware of the spray (done that) of adding dye as it can take ages to go away if you made a mess putting some in with a can pushed by refrigerant. If so seeing evidence isn't so trustworthy. Plain oil stains are good evidence with or without dye. Run finger under hoses and items. The evaporator's drain should be clear of oils or dye now where condensate (water) drips from in normal operation. If oily in there it's damning for a bad/leaking evaporator never fun to do plus can be a Pandora's box of broken parts and making it seal and fit properly.

More on finding leaks: Sometimes as crude as soapy water not unlike you would for a tire is enough too.

**************************************
There's just so much to know and be monitoring while working on the refrigerant side of anything A/C plus knowing when it should shut down due to temp which equate to pressures exactly converted to an electrical signal for a freaking computer of the car to decide what can and should be happening with compressor, fans.

Do rule this out: The clutch on compressor has an air gap for the coil behind it to pull against to engage compressor. It really is critical as it's magnetically pulling in to engage. If the gap is too large it will struggle with that so measure it. A basic rule is about .020 on a feeler gauge or many tough a common but standard paper biz card folded tightly is about that # as well. It's not exact and works in a range but will begin to fail to engage by excessive gap alone at or around .30 or so. Ha! Exceptions to everything as I've seen them work fine way above that??

_____________________

Always #1 on the list with work on things: When in doubt stop and find out what and why. Careful trusting everything ever said on products and the web is still not like being right there and knowing your equipment observing things in person.

Beware of deceptive ads for products! There's been decades of tricks in a can stuff sold with total disregard for how much damage they can do as long as the product sells trust me the makers don't care at all!

Smile - hit back at where I just confused you! I'm sure I'm very capable of that,

Tom
MetroWest, Boston
Image
______________________________
User avatar
Tom Greenleaf
 
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Marlborough, MA. USA
Favorite Refrigerant: R-12+134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:39 am

THANK YOU! Appreciate this. Even though I know some(not as much as I thought) of the information it takes to work on this level of a problem on this car's a/c problem, you're selfless reply helps me realize that I need to study a lot more to be able to get to the root of this particular problem. The info you've sent took what I know and showed me how little that actually was! So thanks for that!! I think.

It's not always the greatest thing to be shown you don't know as much as you thought you did, or needed to know, but hey, not complaining. At all. I'm thankful for the time you took, for no reason I know of, than to help assist me and this problem here. Not many would bother! So yea, thanks for that as well.

I have that H/F 3.0, 2 stage vac pump. It was like 125 bucks or so, I think, about 3 years ago. I just changed the oil in it because I could. It was something I could actually do at this point to rule something out for a change. Been a little frustrating lately on this one! Sucks not knowing whats wrong so I CAN fix it.
Today I bought a receiver drier just to know it was not the problem. Didnt care about the 28 bucks. I just want to know I haven't let something somewhat small get overlooked at this point!
I ordered that Bacharach 19-8106 Tru Pointe Refrigerant Leak Detector. Don't care anymore how much this mission, (yes. I'm on a MISSION now, at this point!) costs as long as I get to find out what it was causing this the whole time.

I'm double and triple checking things like: are the low side, high side and the yellow service lines working right?
Is this cheapy vac pump operating right anymore, as there's way to much of that white mist, smoke, than there usually is when I've vac'd any other systems, ever!
Did I put a new o-rings everywhere. (I got a small plastic butter bowl thing slap full of green and other o-rings)

Are lines good? I got lots of lines from other convertibles I have here, not to mention all kinds of parts galore I can use. So I've changed lines 3 times I think, making sure I have the best ports, etc. Just a lot of overkill here but still not getting it figured out yet! sucks
When I bought that new Spectra condenser, did I puncture it somehow, and if so would It be causing the issues showing here. I dont think I did but... Can you even test a new condenser? And I installed it already. Should I take it out? Maybe it could be tested with the vac pump? I doubt it. I still havent put the front end back on the car so I have access to everything!
And last, but def not least as I'm sure I didnt leave anything out again(sorry)the readings on the gauges are negative pressure on low side but goes up to like zero when I open up the high side. It's weird but not really. The readings, I think, mean I have a huge leak. I've replaced everything BUT the compressor as it was fine and it still engages and stuff but like you said, It could have a gap out of spec. And the evaporator hasnt been changed. (Yet) I know its hard but I'll do it, just dont want to do it for nothing. But I'm starting to think its the culprit in this nightmare!
Thanks for ALL the info! A LOT. I'm going over every word of it again tomorrow to see what I might should do next.
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:42 pm

In a way I apologize for my VERBOSE posts written 99% by me one at a time not just copied off of existing crap. Like a young fool (not really) learned to type. The real info if condensed to a text message to save reading you lose!

* Vacuum pump lore: It doesn't make a rat's azz how you achieve the vacuum just have to get to a full vacuum. The cost and features of them are for speed and ease of use not if they can do the job or not. If one for $2 bucks works but took two days it's the same result - zero is zero no matter how you got there. In fact if way too fast it probably is pulling out more oil than you want to lose and really should lose almost none pulling a vacuum.

Leak in metal of a condenser: Ooops it happens. Lines rub or even a dropped tool can poke a hole as the now all super efficient one are not so strong as the now obsolete heavy ones that lasted decades and take a hit hard and just fix it if need be.

Time to learn is pay dirt! Learn you tools. For leak detector play with the thing with a hydrocarbon already said a common lighter is usually butane it should set it off. Propane will set it off too and should be able to adjust sensitivity. Know that if you sprayed a cleaner near where you are looking the cleaner will set it off so it's not perfect and can be misleading. Nice if you can find two reasons or more to blame an item. Nicer I guess if you plain see a hole or hear one hissing out.

This knowledge of what can happen where is so vast it's discouraging. Mistakes cost tons more than being correct! Answer: Be correct or don't mess with it.

"Liken this to open heart surgery - "Doc how's the heart transplant going?" Just got it to fit in perfectly." Observer says "That's great doc but the person was dead two days ago!"

Seriously - the more you learn about this stuff the more you realize how much you didn't know that was dangerous or damaging. Part knowledge is actually worse than none!

Site is slow if you don't mind can go off on some tangents of the learning phase of things and send you to my own Dad's obit which is in "Off Topic" at this site but the link is.....
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8170
Point is now he was a remarkable teacher too and wouldn't know squat about A/C. He recited his 1948 commencement key note speaker from Harvard Med Graduation as saying something to the effect of "You see something done, you do that something with someone. Then when you can show another how to do it properly YOU HAVE LEARNED IT!"

That old crap still rings true.

He was both lots like me and lots unlike me but I did get the DNA of the learning curve or fooled myself that I did?

Point again, learn your tools and equipment. Know when you can take your time and when time is of the essence or wreck the job.

******************************************
Cool items I still use and swear by. Those once everywhere in/out wired thermometers really meant to hang wired end out a window at home type things. You can set those to read vent temps while being under the hood reading incoming air temp at a glance. I don't see that for sale for A/C use but they are right on accurate needed info. Temp and pressures is everything to A/C plus where it is at, at the given time.

With that this game for a final charge when the issue is found and fixed you need all info you can have. It's not the same each day never mind where you are working and how. Is car level, hot sun or late or early day? Oh my it all counts.

Most things you will totally succeed at you will be on a "MISSION" to get it and I like that and am like that. If not motivated you probably would never get it and that's fine too just that's it's not going to be your thing.

Laugh. Let me know where I confuse you. My mind isn't like many others and no clue where 6 years of higher education went.

I took up A/C last as it's not so critical to have at all where I live but ticked off that so many that I observed really didn't know what they were doing well back when now. There are more that do now available but greatly a seasonal trade/skill that get put away off season like that lawnmower if you ever tried wont start for crap at 15F to save your life. Such is true as my A/C gases are stored cold so don't work and in the way and folks don't even know during Winter if A/C works or not and can't as it's colder all around than anyone would ask a car/vehicle to do and it wouldn't if that cold anyway!

If determined YOU can do it. Knowing what you don't know is its own skill!

Tom
MetroWest, Boston
Image
______________________________
User avatar
Tom Greenleaf
 
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Marlborough, MA. USA
Favorite Refrigerant: R-12+134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby cornbinder89 » Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:44 pm

I have a few comments. One is no vacuum pump made for A/C work will ever achieve a "full vacuum". I know of a man who decided to try it out. He put a amount of water in a container designed for brake bleeding (this is important so it could take a vacuum) and hooked it to the shops A/C vacuum pump. The water remained after an hour on the pump. This was a commercial shop and had a good pump. It just can't pull low enough to boil off the water at room temp. It will remove water that does make it into vapor form. He found it took heat and a good amount of vacuum to remove the water in liquid form in the container. On a truly "wet" system he recommended a couple of "sweep charges" where vacuum is pulled then gas (dry nitrogen) is installed then vacuumed out again. Far better to keep moisture out in the 1st place.
Vacuum is key, but vane type vacuum pumps will never achieve a low enough pressure to get all the moisture out. A good descant can help with what remains.
2nd is A/C is a heat pump, it moves heat from one location (evaporator) to another (condenser). If the parts of the system are working (compressor, expansion valve or orifice tube) and the system has the correct charge and no non-condensable (air) and still doesn't cool, I look to the outlet of the condenser and compare the inlet temp to the outlet temp. The inlet can and should be very warm to hot depending on heat load, the outlet should be warm but not nearly as hot. If not, then the condenser is not removing the heat and little more can be added.
Just because a condenser doesn't leak isn't good enough. It must remove heat for the system to work. The old tube and fin type condensers often relied on a press fit for the fins to remove heat from the tubes. With the Mag-chloride the states love to spray on the roads in winter, just a small amount of corrosion between the fin and tube and no heat transfer takes place.
I am really impressed with the new extruded aluminum multi-pass parallel flow condensers for removing heat. They do a very good job and have one drawback, the tubes are small and they clog easily if any debris gets in the system. So any major failure and you might need to replace it, other than that they do an excellent job and can remove more heat per sq in than the tube and fin type, and I use them whenever I have to replace a condenser. I find them better then OEM "piccolo type tube and fin, and often cheaper. They are made in many generic sizes , but do require some modifications to mounts and hoses.
Forgot to add that air flow over the condenser is critical, without proper air flow no heat transfer. Fan shrouds and baffels/seals between the condenser and radiator are key to making sure the air flows thru the condenser and not around it.
cornbinder89
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:10 pm
Location: Lyman, IA
Favorite Refrigerant: R134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:30 am

Thank you Tom, Cornbinder89! Appreciate the help, a lot!!
I got that sniffer today, that Bacharach Tru Pointe its called. Of course I cant use it yet because I don't think there's any way to fill the system enough for it to find the leak anywhere?? I assume anyway.
I forced a little bit into the system today, again by jumping the compressor, straight wiring so to speak, for just long enough to accept the last 3 or 4 ounces of freon I had in the can I used last time. It took it I think. And when I went to try to detect anything, I think I got a "hit". How do I get it to test the evaporator on this 2000 conv sebring jxi, 2.5L?
Cornbinder's right about it all being a heat pump so to speak. And what he's saying about heat being moved or transferred to the condenser is right...I think.(remember, I don't know near as much as you guys so I think he's right because he prob DOES know near as much as me and all the so called "experts" I hang out with at times) I am just about 100% sure that Cornbinder89 knows more than the self proclaimed, "intelligent", friends of mine do, plus me, all put together, and then times that by two!! haha! He probably knows more than that! I have heard of some folks forgetting more than I know about ac work, but that's another story!
Anyway, what Cornbinder89 says about the "inlet" port of the condenser having to be about the same temp, same heat, as the lines bringing it to the condenser, it makes perfect sense! And puts it in a picture in my head that I can see. Like Mr Greenleaf does when he exolains things. So to me it does, anyway. And then, when it leaves the "outlet" port, he's correct about that needing to be cooler. It would get cooler by then or the condenser isn't doing its job! I get that. Got it Mr Cornbinder89!! Thats one way of quickly just checking to see if you need to check even further on the condenser's ability, like if its working or not! Thanks for that!

Mr Greenleaf is so dead on as well about all kinds of stuff! Many things, things beyond ac theory and knowledge. Thanks for the help Mr Greenleaf! Big help. Your time/info are appreciated a whole lot here. So Cornbinder89 and Tom Greenleaf are all over some of the things I was hoping for or would be explained! Thanks for every bit of it you guys!

But, so now that I got this gigantic leak or hole or whatever somewhere in this 2000 sebring JXI conv ac system, the wont hold Freon for 5 minutes, and also a brand new Bacharach sniffer, it seems like i could still be in a bind! Still!!!
Again, I've changed everything under the hood, some stuff at least 3 times and the only thing that hasn't been swapped out yet is the compressor and the evaporator. I'd sure like to know if the evaporator is leaking BEFORE I take it apart and put it back together! Where to go from here...?
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:36 am

First note this thread will go on to page two so look for that on your lower right to change pages.

About finding a 5 minute leak: That's fast but not a bullet hole and almost should hear it but of course needs to be quiet where you are working. IDK - when that fast spray bottle of soapy water should do. Condenser is such a maze of fins and passages hard to pin point if in the heat exchange core of them which if so that one isn't any good.

Call this a very fast leak will spew so much refrigerant that the sniffer approach will be confused with so much gas all around the area really wont focus on exact spot well or at all.

Vent out whole area - fans or whatever it takes. This part of the chase you are just wasting refrigerant to find out for sure so you don't need to use much of a detectible gas to find and don't.

For evaporator in all this script when all other leaks are thought to be fixed or ruled out some you can see stain if blower motor is removed, cabin vents will make sniffer sing and so will vent hole where water drains and show oil/dye if it ever worked with that suspect evaporator.

Some notes now again: This leak is fast enough that the system isn't going to hold a vacuum unless somehow it holds vacuum but not pressure. Refrigerant gasses are thinner molecule than air as well and will leak where air might not.
Refresh that vacuum is only holding OUT atmospheric pressure (14.7 PSI) at max vs pressure of gas goes into the 100s (PSI) at times of operation and heat.

Now know that pulling a vacuum with this leak you are highly likely to be pulling in air thru that leak! Try to keep that to a minimum.

I can't know how much moisture "desiccant" in dryers can really hold nor have we (at this site) concluded that it can be removed from desiccant once saturated. Dang - PAG oils absorb moisture as well and for both I really doubt vacuum alone will boil out moisture. I have to believe that high heat would but would need a laboratory setting to prove all that.

For this project I'd like to see it hold a vacuum all day as so much has been done or opened any of those are suspect areas so time to wait is valuable.

General bull: When/if things are just not working out don't get angry at the car or the tools rather leave it safe to ignore for a while and go back to it later thinking why something didn't' work.

IT'S NOT A FAILURE IT'S A SUCCESS AT FINDING OUT WHAT DIDN'T WORK - unfortunately can get pricey.

Any failure/leaks that repeat like an "O" ring or other find out why is really nice to know.

Products for connections: Don't use PAG oils for a lube for connections if avoidable or alternatives available. Mineral oils are better or I like pure Silicone grease by trace smear no build up. Untested by me but said that baby oil is (read contents) is just about pure mineral oil? I'll let you check that out more if you wish.

Carry on,

Tom
MetroWest, Boston
Image
______________________________
User avatar
Tom Greenleaf
 
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Marlborough, MA. USA
Favorite Refrigerant: R-12+134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:23 pm

On way to store to get mineral oil.
The evap worked last year. it worked great, especially for an older car. Worked so great, it was like it worked a little too good maybe? Had me kind of thinking dang, wish all the cars in the family had air this cold. Like how's this older car the coldest of all! Could it have been getting to cold and that was a sign of something to come maybe??

So evaporator worked I guess. It also worked the year before that when got the stupid car.(not mad at the car or the tools) sorry bout that!
And you're Def right Mr Grenleaf. Seems like you can hear it go out while its going in almost! I kind of know its not fixed again also when I think I hear it leaking. It sounds like its coming from engine bay, around the left side, going pshhhhhh while I'm putting it in. But 'm not 100% sure its the sound of losing the freon. It could be losing it and I dont hear it at all. I dont know!
I dont want to destroy our environment! So really on this one, like you said you wanted, unless it holds vacuum for 24 hours now(not 20 mins) dont charge it I assume. Hard to decide what to do next sometimes.
I did get a case of the little cans for 50 bucks though. So I guess I helped save some of the wallet! I thought I could run a tiny bit of freon with some nitrogen maybe? Then hunt, without destroying the world so much? But at this point though, I think I'm only focusing on finding this "hole", fixing it, pulling vac for 24 and THEN trying to charge her up!(I assume thats the plan, anyway)

So, good thinking Mr Greenleaf, I forgot about taking off the blower motor or at least the cover? Maybe I'll find something there! Great idea. Thanks and I appreciate the entire reply as It def helped raise spirits and hopes, if nothing else. But I really got a lot more out of it than just some more motivation. I pick up on something everytime you all reply, so Thanks. I'll work today on blower motor and a couple other things and will shoot results later on. Maybe it'll be something you've seen before. I think I just cant give any good or accurate information yet either. I thought about that the other day. I probably cant help you help me because I cant tell you things good enough(yet!) But man, I appreciate help, a lot.
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:14 pm

Onward: Just caught me as I'm more of a night owl.
So, you can hear it you'll find it.

Pls clarify if you are concerned with BOTH condenser you believe you hear leak AND evaporator unseen without looking or evidence that proves it.

A pickle with releasing refrigerant: Nato cooperating countries agreed to XYZ rules which are impossible in cases. Yes the suggestion would be to use R-22 and nitrogen for leak finding. Not a fan of nitrogen which is totally harmless but not so sure it's going to leak as well as refrigerant so a rock and hard place.

Hey - rules allow for purging lines in your hoses of gauges and can taps to clear them of air before putting product into a system. Just a spit lost isn't much nor should be in the count of how many ounces you've added for the final charge where it will really matter to know by weight what went in. For the small cans weight them on a good postal scale with tap and hose as the "tare" weight and do the math.

Could make (is one at this site somewhere) the argument never agreed on about harm to atmosphere with refrigerants. I have to say that you don't purposely and knowingly release the gases but rather recover them first and jump thru hoops. IMO and it can only be that but try to find something wrong with this statement by me here someplace is the "Every molecule of refrigerant ever made will find its way into the atmosphere sooner or later." The best we are doing is slowing that down. What the heck does anyone think these world news events of earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, tornados to name some with debris and everything all smashed buildings and all items involved stored inside and so on. Just where does all that go? Nuff said.

Whacked it's right in front of me. Empty 12 oz. cans I used last weighed 3.2 oz., Brass tap with Acme cap was 2.9oz. Total full can new with tap = 18.1 oz. Good enough for A/C work to know weights that close.

Never ends: Not all small cans or taps weight the same so check new ones and your tap, gauge set up you are using or just a hose off the tap - don't know what you have for final charge and can get to that later.

One more on condensers: I'm in a snow belt where heavy loads of rock salt is used and sand with small stones in it as well. Vehicles driven when that stuff is just put out and driving at a decent speed catch that right into condensers here and any place that does that for roads or by chance debris of all sorts on our roads we don't notice it's all over in one stone brand new or not if hit just right.

Those you usually see the bent fins and a dark spot where oils came out if bad enough. It really happens but almost always to vehicles driven at higher speeds during times when those products are used to clear ice and snow from roads. It's the speed and a vehicle in front of you that kicks the stuff up.

Point is those type things are beyond all of your control short of just don't use the vehicle or ever follow another.
Catch you later after your run for mineral oil or as said Silcone grease for lube. BTW it's a product mostly sold for automotive brake part lubing as it doesn't harm rubber nor wash away easily at all even with soaps and cleaners! It will NOT mix with water even over extended time either - other greases do,

Tom
MetroWest, Boston
Image
______________________________
User avatar
Tom Greenleaf
 
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Marlborough, MA. USA
Favorite Refrigerant: R-12+134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:23 pm

Hey Tom, Cornbinder89. Today's a better day, got some improvement! The high side line AT compressor was leaking real bad. You just couldn't see it from the front. But the new leak detector picked it up and when I got down under car, looked behind where the line goes into the compressor, I could see it! Green dye, wet, liquidy, the whole 9yards as they say! So sweet. I found a real leak.
Its directly at the port though. SO is it the line or compressor is what I don't know yet. You know that screw that holds the end of the line into the compressor? Well, that threaded part where the screw goes in is stripped somewhat. Its not holding the line into the port to well so I think It's the compressor. Not the line. Wonder where I can get a compressor for not a million bucks?

This is where its at now, I think.
I'll get a used compressor for now from pull a part(there's like 20 sebrings out there at any given time!)
While I'm there I'll get one of those high side condenser to the compressor lines, or two of them, no big deal. Also it's the line that has that transducer thing on this high side line that goes into the compressor, and is the leaking line at that. Would the leaking of freon at compressor affect anything at the transducer piece that the pig tail plug goes into? I highly doubt it but it says to check for continuity if you want to to make sure the condenser is good. Seems weird. But if you know what I;m talking about or anything about that trans piece and the continuity procedure, that'd be great to find out about!
After I put the compressor in, put the line in, IF theres no leak there and the compressor works, I should have ac but with a good size leak if that evap is leaking! But the good news out of all this is I'll finally be able to find the leak as it will hold at that point. Any leaks at that point!
Found some mineral oil in the closet, way in the back! It says June, 2014 on the expiration date!! Think I should throw it away!! Haha.
I'll see what you think and go from there Tom, Cornbinder89. Thanks for the help! A Lot. I think i'm getting somewhere now, its just taking some work. Again, any ideas are highly appreciated! Thx.
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby cornbinder89 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:26 pm

if your old compressor was good, you could heli-coil the bolt hole and hang on to it as a spare.
cornbinder89
 
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:10 pm
Location: Lyman, IA
Favorite Refrigerant: R134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:46 pm

Mineral oil is fine. Good grief they put exp. dates on distilled water! It's an oil and suppose if real Baby Oil might worry but not for use on the car and mark it for that.

Threads. Heli-Coils by size - ask with bolt if that's good at a real parts place would help.

Oh boy - ask as there might be a part size up of the bolt if just a bolt? They absolutely make them for oil drain plugs marked like .25 oversize. I have not really checked for anything A/C yet but have had some SAE sizes so close could just tap existing hole to threads for a new SAE on some things and worked. You can buy ONE tap and not a whole set.

It's a commitment any which way just use all care not to drill crooked or too deep.

BTW - if noticed and all fails this would void the core charge for a rebuilt unit but suggest skipping those totally anyway for 100% new, clutch and all that is exact fit no tricks

You know I can't stop this early in a post. If this compressor has run low enough and slowly even if not very old it's hard on them as at the point they quit blowing cold oil stop circulating too and not all timed to shut down early enough so check oil that comes out for metallic junk - that's a whole new problem if you find that on top of plain leak fixing,

Tom
MetroWest, Boston
Image
______________________________
User avatar
Tom Greenleaf
 
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Marlborough, MA. USA
Favorite Refrigerant: R-12+134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Wed Apr 27, 2016 8:02 pm

Gotcha! I can heli coil it no problem. Got several sizes of those around here. So no problem with that. Wow, So I can use the compressor as a spare huh? Cool! I went and poured out some of the oil just ow to look for what you were saying, metallic junk, and it pours out green, prob from the dye I used, then after a few secs it starts showing millions of tiny tiny bubbles I guess you would call them. But I dont think theres any metal. And it turns with some slight resistance, if that means anything.

Hey Tom, I got another identical compressor in another car, same year and everything. The only thing is, when it got parked, the high side line got taken off of it, like 4 months ago. Well, the compressor port was never closed up or capped or taped or anything. Do you think it can be used still or is it like the receiver drier, ruins if left open. The low side port still has the hose connected to it as well as the entire system, just the high side line was removed from the high side;s port of the compressor. Thx for any opinion you have on that! Thx Mr. Greenleaf for the help!
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:01 pm

The other compressor if needed!

It might be OK? See if outer plate turns by hand now and if easy enough or with maybe an oil filter wrench turn it. Put oil in, inlet and spin it thru then plug it off.

You know I'm not going to shut up yet but when you get a new or redone one you still spin oil thru them on the bench FIRST so it's initial WHAM and turn isn't the last it works and a real issue.

I don't redo any to see all guts but the seals for compressing are probably a Teflon coating that would or can make a dark mud when/if run dry of oil. Nick named "Black Death" for a compressor.

If yours looks ok now free of shards and metal it should be fine as it was with the threads fixed and sealed up.

Knock on wood I've never had to replace a compressor on any of my own cars that had a good one when I got it! Why - I watch temp outputs when in use like a hawk. When one creeps higher for similar days I know it's time to check it out and then you usually hear compressor death rattle from being a bit low that goes away when properly charged. Have to also know that I'm as stubborn as it gets and keep cars for decades on end. Newest car right now is an 1989 like new! Same make and car as many I had to drive in Winter this one doesn't see rain even.

My avatar is hard to make out. That a blue spruce tree and an 89 of the same car in my back yard the died from rust I just gave up on with snow about disguising that it's a car at all.

Rust takes out any car you have to use here not mechanicals. It also means nobody is going to spend a fortune on A/C when the car as a whole is about to be junked from rust so don't and didn't do many. It's not funny if you've seen that. By the time you can see your rear wheels thru the trunk it's game over for that car! That and playing Fred Flintstone with your feet dragging in the road if carpet isn't holding up when the metal is gone!

Tom
MetroWest, Boston
Image
______________________________
User avatar
Tom Greenleaf
 
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Marlborough, MA. USA
Favorite Refrigerant: R-12+134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:00 pm

You are the man Mr Greenleaf! I'm going to throw that other compressor from that other sebring in this one but only After I dump the oil out and pour same amount of new back in?
Theres only 1 bolt left to take out of it to have it all the way out. I've been waiting for you to say if you thought it was ok to even use it before I took the last of the 4 long bolts out of it, so to reinstall it in the car I'm working on. If it actually works, and theres a vacuum finally, I'll order a new or reman'd one right away. But I really feel like the evap is going to leak once I get a non leaking new or used compressor thrown in there.
And always remember this: I don't care how much info you want to write out, or post or whatever! To me, the more, the better. I appreciate every word of every sentence! So the more you dont shut up, the better! For me anyway!!

I'm going out to finish pulling the one out of that car that I had taken off high side line from the compressors high side line's port some time ago. Maybe 2 months ago, 3, I cant remember how long. I took that line off the compressor fpr some reason a little while back, but you think its ok to use even though I never capped it with anything? Again, I did leave the rest of the entire ac system intact. Just took the high side line off compressor to the condenser. And I really cant remember why I needed it!
So its ok to use you think? It worked fine before this car was wrecked. Oh, and you want the oil in it drained and then put back in the exact same amount of pag? Then turn the outer plate a few times?
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby mcone » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:01 am

Well, I finished putting in that used compressor. It started leaking right away. Right there at the port that the low side's line goes into it at. The freon is coming right out of the sealed tight, low side's line right at the air compressors port.
Yesterday it was the high side port on the compressor. But of course it was on that other compressor yesterday. So thats the low side line port AND the high side line's port, both leaked, at the same place but on different compressors...??

I know I'm putting these compressor's lines into its ports correctly. So I'm wondering, could it "blow" the end of the lines out somehow, for some reason? Like if theres some blocking somewhere it blows it out of a compressors ports that lines go into them at? Its just weird that yesterday that compressors high side line leaked at the compressors port and today, this compressor leaks at the low side port, where the low side suction line goes into the compressor.

And if its NOT blowing out lines at the compressors ports, it must have just been 2 no good compressors? Twice in a row I got bad compressors.(they were extremely used, probably not much more than junk so...who knows) You probably know Mr Greenleaf!!

Ok, I got this information for today's work.
The lines, when charging system, get cold as heck at the fill port on the suction low side line, and down and up the low side's line just about everywhere, real cold. Too cold actually!
And on the high side, it starts getting hot, kind of, so thats good usually. but, from the receiver drier to the expansion valve(that short little line)it stays regular temp. Not warm or hot or anything at all!
So low side gets ice cold and frosty up there at fill port, high side lines get warm and want to get hot except for that one line from receiver/drier to expansion valve. Then the compressor leaks big time at the low side's line port and yesterday on the other old compressor, the high side compressors port for the high side line was leaking big time. Uhhhh!

I need to know where to get a quality, but affordable, compressor for a 1999 sebring convertible JXi, 2.5L.
Thanks for help you guys, a lot!
mcone
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:08 am
Favorite Refrigerant: r134a

Re: new condenser installed, now got major issues

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:24 am

Dang! What's with those lines? Is this one block with a bolt holding both lines w two "O" rings or how's that done on this. I can try to look it up for a picture which is iffy.

You can mess up lines or gaskets wrong for one or the other once for GM anyway sold by color (red and a green one) close but not close enough to work if wrong.

Sorry this is giving you quite the work out and still leaking but I'll say good news if you charged and got a cool/cold and warm or hot line means something there is working.

Check out this chart which is posted on a locked post up top right here as well if this doesn't work.........

Image

If that doesn't show this should.........

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8490 (That's the link to the post)

OK: That is a nice tidbit of info on temp/pressure relationship. Now you can spend some more $$ and get a touchless thermos and know the exact temp of a line if pure refrigerant then also know what temp it is! Voila - you can test the temp of the little cans and know their pressure without even opening them.

Radio shack used to sell them the size of a large key fob or heard Harbor Freight for even less. Not big bucks either way and have to learn/practice with the things. With battery should be less that $25 or so.

It's not so handy for checking air temps but OK if it points at something solid. Try using one on your freezer and ice cubes and get the idea. Just played with mine and ice cubes (I'm in my kitchen) are -5to -7F right now. Don't ask why I have tools in my kitchen. Normal isn't in my vocabulary!

This is real nice info for A/C or assorted uses. It can find a blockage along line if temp change suddenly for example.

There isn't a need for refrigerant temps in lines to be below 32F or they'll frost so if they do something isn't right. Frost on outside of line means it's probably colder in evaporator and it's icing up - if so charge isn't right usually.

Evap icing if you get there will block air flow, quit cooling and the chronic ones don't drip condensate but make a iceberg in dash then when shut down makes a huge puddle under vehicle if left operating long enough to accumulate.

Said back a mile ago that knowing temps is going to be very important info. It's just so handy that if you can know temps you also know pressures if the dang tool is working properly.

We are or should say YOU are going to lose track of how much oil is in this system and might need to diagnose that if so and what to do about that.

Just FYI - A/C isn't for the timid or casual hit and run fixes without knowing quite a bit about what is happening where. No joke, it takes tons of learning plus time, tools and knowing how to use them.

Said earlier that I'm not a fan of used compressors! There's a much higher failure rate and risk of adding debris from a bad one then set you back to worse off than before you touched the car the first time is horribly discouraging! Be warned.

Back at this later,
Tom (You don't need call me Mr. as I feel old enough so plain Tom is fine :-)
MetroWest, Boston
Image
______________________________
User avatar
Tom Greenleaf
 
Posts: 4549
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:40 am
Location: Marlborough, MA. USA
Favorite Refrigerant: R-12+134a

Next

Return to A/C Questions and Opinions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], The Google [Bot] and 7 guests

cron