Excursion A/C issues, HELP

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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby cornbinder89 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:35 am

All your numbers sound good. I'll keep my fingers cross for you that it all works out. Still, it is a puzzle, what was causeing the problem in the 1st place. I suppose it is much more important to have it fixed the to know the cause, but I am of the type who wants to know WHY for every problem!
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Daves Garage » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 am

Hello Fellas, Im back! Been a busy year and havent had much time to work on my stuff. I did recently have some time to drive the Excursion here in Phoenix and remembered how awful the AC is. I discovered that the compressor clutch on an Excursion compressor is 1/2" smaller than a Super Duty clutch, thought I found the issue but I already have the 4.5" Excursion clutch and not the 5" thats on the Super Duty. Struck out there!

On another note, and Im sure that Ive brought this up somewhere in this thread already, it is AMAZING how much impact UV rays have on how this system works. Im assuming its UV rays because that would be the only change from day light to hours between dusk and dawn (if the ambient temperatures didnt change right?).

105F Daytime hours with just the front air - 52-55F vent temps. Vent temps climb slowly if not driving.
105F Daytime hours with front and rear air on - 58-60F vent temps. Vent temps climb if not driving.
105F Between dusk and dawn - Vent temps hover around 40F with front and rear air on. Vent temps stay the same, sitting or driving.

Considering an electric fan for the condenser to help too. Another thing I have noticed is that I dont get much condensation dripping from the ac box. It is all new in there, everything is clean.

Cornbinder, remember you said that you thought something could be wrong with the suction hose going into the compressor? Well I have also read that the factory hose can start to collapse on the inside and you wouldnt be able to tell on the outside. Also seems like a possibility!
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:50 am

Quote from above post ">>Another thing I have noticed is that I don't get much condensation dripping from the ac box. It is all new in there, everything is clean.<<"

No surprise alone. Phoenix almost never would have the dew point for condensate (water) at those temps. Dry ambient air.

My own don't if and can be close to that dry so not a conclusion unless you knew all humidity factors and the temps of items.

You also mention UV light invasion. Absolutely even with same air temps. The ground you are over is warmed, vehicle is warmer to the touch which the system is battling with.

I'd want better vent temps than you see in daytime but not sure it's totally possible by design.

As with anything - insulate floors (if only floor mats added) more if you can feel engine heat at all you are fighting that too. IDK - tint windows as per legal up to maybe nicely paint roof a reflective color if a dark color now?

It all matters. Think about what you would get by adding a fan? Maybe help maybe not. Use a mist of water to really cool condenser and that would beat any fan you could come up with and see what maximum possible would be,

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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Cusser » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:18 pm

Dave - is your Excursion garaged (is there a garage large enough?) ? In addition to 130F 3 feet over the roadway, a vehicle parked in Arizona sun soon has its seats, dashboard, etc. all heated up to like 130-140F, so all that heat sink needs to be dissipated.

I find similar with my 1988 Mazda truck AC if parked in the sun even an hour. We have had '88 and '94 Suburbans and currently a 2005 Yukon XL, all with dual AC in Phoenix, and they cool really well even during the summer days. And my '98 and 2004 Frontiers cool very well there too.

Did that Excursion EVER cool really well, maybe it's just not engineered well for such a huge vehicle? What was wrong where you replaced all the components, just general lack of cooling?
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Daves Garage » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:39 pm

We bought the Excursion back in 2010 and the cooling was never spectacular so I took it into an AC shop (this was before I had the equipment to do the work). They said the compressor was original and tired, the truck had 230,000 on it so I believed them. They quoted me more than $2,000 to fix, I said no way. Thats when I bought my machine and started doing my own AC work.

I have a friend that has the same year of truck but his is green and mine is red. He swears his ac works fine but I havent witnessed it. So I keep striving to make mine work good and its not really that great. Something that Tom mentioned, the clear coat is GONE from the top of this truck, wonder if that could be a big issue? It currently does sit outside but I have a garage being built right now that will house this beast in the next couple of months. I recently bought formed fitted carpet mats for the truck and it has all the original carpet which is in great shape. Its frustrating when I get into my friends 2006 suburban and within 5 minutes its a meat locker in there and basically the same size inside.

Thanks!
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:34 pm

Long thread over a long time as well. Just now caught 230,000K - that was in 2010? What do you have now?

I ask because at miles (had a couple way up there of my own assorted) and you lose the weather stripping seals, other assorted rubber stuff to keep air controlled and water out things. Door panels from new are pretty tight with usually a nice plastic wrap you can't save well just tape well if you have to be inside for things as common as PW, PDL items and such. Door hinges barely last if not really assertive at really greasing them or those that get used.

This just to make thread longer I guess. I'm still driving a 1989 Town Car. Last year for slice vent windows just BTW. Sounds nuts and is but constantly monitor outside temp with a wired remote meant to hang out a window more for home use and another in a center vent always watching how the two behave with each other at what speeds - sun, road situation where I am 99% is asphalt, black when new and light grey if old matters!

With that add you are - have to be losing some extra air out thru seals on doors - anywhere. I notice when I open a slice vent window just a little all temps inside change including vent temp adds 5F right away with one open back down if just shut.

Getting old friend. In I think model year 1968 or so it was mandated that a vehicle exchange the air inside cabin every so many seconds/minutes but not very long such that when you think you are recirculating interior air constantly you also are passively being vented or powered as needed or was at first models blower never totally quit - annoyed everyone - many makes and models.

Look at you door jams - that's where passive or forced air leaves thru those grilles.

So - everyone is still cooling plenty of outside/ambient air just less than any "FRESH" air request or choice.

Can't let you do this and leave it this way but might for a test block those off with painter's tape for easy removal you must do but see how much difference it makes.

I don't want you to alter a fresh air mandate as it's for a reason - you need air or forget it as yes you could suffocate yourself if a vehicle was that air tight.

In short what was intended for BTU power is probably taxed out to the max. Fill it with people add heat from just body heat loss too if you carry passengers a lot or never changes the load on A/C for absolute sure.

So in daylight time any heat of the interior is all hotter than the ambient temp for sure - seats, everything all must cool down as just mentioned before then you have something stable to hold preferred quick and exact temps you want on demand.

You might just be completely normal for the design it was made for?

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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Daves Garage » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:51 pm

Tom,
It now has 248,000 on it. Wife never drives it far, usually short trips. I'm amazed at how well the weather stripping has held up on this truck actually. It may have shrank and not such a tight seal anymore but it is still visually in perfect shape. I will try to get some gauges on it again soon and report back. Sure seems like the low side could drop some and make it cooler but I'm not sure about that, this is the only dual air system (other than my friends suburban) that I have worked on and I can't really compare the two systems.
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:33 am

Arrrg: Hard to know without being there seeing something not noticed.

Different conditions now done with all this for myself now. Nothing is fast to cool for short trips on the very real hot days just time parked in sun and a 3 mile run at a time doesn't cut it doing errands type driving. Never did when vehicles were new either.

Unsure: If observing pressures all the time just use front only and forget using rear you should get that right and forget what using rear does to pressures IMO.

I personally would refuse rear air evap only on one compressor as you really only split the same cooling power which is great if you have passengers in the back but complicates the set up when age kicks in.

Many Suburbans in family w 3 rows of seats did just fine with front only A/C for here and all rusted out while you watched body, A/C lines and all just more to go wrong for here. This is close to #1 for fast rust outs of vehicles - populated, high traffic hours with wild weather swings of ice, snow, warmer and colder, melting and refreezing forces use of very corrosive rock salts on roads worse than battery acid to a vehicle, bridges, roads, guardrails - signs everything rusts out even bottom of garage doors when you park a dirty vehicle inside to melt down it wreck the floor and garage doors - stinks.

But we love it here you know! No problem - just hide till Spring and all is well.

Now for you the short trips aren't going to cut it. Drive a lot longer and a over 45 when legal and clear to do so should come back in ranges of what you want,

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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Daves Garage » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:14 am

Its late and I may be thinking with my head up a dark hole but has anyone ever seen someone stack condensers? For my issues with this Excursion I think I just need to try an electric fan on the condenser but I started brain storming with this condenser idea. What made me think this was I was reading how Ford offered a condenser for the Excursion (no longer) that was for higher temp climates. Seems it was the same footprint but thicker.
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:23 pm

You know what "Dave's Garage" it's probably best at this 3rd page now and so much time to start another thread all new with current info on what tested as what in what conditions.

NO to stacking condensers IMO.

You may if not already said have a bad one new or not. Sometimes just using water spray on a weak one will show you a clue of what improving heat exchange either condenser or how fans are working and how strong will tell what you could get or help lead that it's something else totally.

I fear higher efficiency condensers just for weakness and ever thinner passages.

You might see spots where temps show a flaw with a touchless infrared thermo?

IDK - Have you been in another of the same vehicle that pleases you? Some just aren't going to be enough for certain conditions for the size of these things inside.

Ya - have once heard and seen vehicles and they were Ford products sold with optional "Desert Cooling" both cooling system for engine which counts and A/C as best as possible.

Hate to see you try things, spend tons of bucks and find it doesn't help much or at all. Is it just the wrong vehicle for what you need it to do?

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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby cornbinder89 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:44 pm

Before you go down that road, what is the outlet temp of the condenser? If the temp isn't high than nothing will be gained by a bigger condenser. MEI has a 32K BTU generic that is bigger than what the Ford system is, that would likely fit in front of the radiator with a little work.
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Daves Garage » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:29 am

Thanks Cornbinder, I dont recall the actual temps of the condenser and that is something I should have recorded but didnt.

Tom, I thought about starting another thread but then someone will always ask what the history is and I guess I could share a link to this thread but what fun would that be? A friend has the same exact truck but dark green and he told me his AC was working really good until I rode in his truck. It works exactly the same as mine. The reason I considered running an electric fan or some kind of upgraded condenser is because I cant get the low side down to a normal level unless I mist the condenser. Ive tried several different orifice tubes and all that really did was effect the high side and no cooling difference (of course). Likes to linger around mid to high 40s on low side, maybe the rear TXV has something to do with this?
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:12 am

This will soon be page 4 in my view so getting impossible to know the whole series of events that worked or didn't.

You can just refer to this thread with a link to it like this..............

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13660&start=40

Some bullet points for dual systems with rear TXV set ups.

* Take pressure and observations with rear OFF. X valve can hog the refrigerant already condensed and throw you off.

* Adding fans is best to be well thought out IMO. I would never personally. They can fight each other if you leave both OE set up and add something. Think two table fans - do you get more air if you put one behind another? Maybe, maybe less. Near impossible to know till attempted but know that OE designs are almost always well engineered to be adequate at least.

Again on fans. Think: If adding them vs bolstering the set up you have you may create a vacuum which wouldn't exchange heat as well. Cornbinder mentioned feeling for temps already exchanged by hand and can agree with that.

If double fans in order not side by side think airplanes. Why do they put propellers/engines side by side instead of in front of each other and save space? Doesn't work that way without incredible engineering.

* I'm sure already said but if you use water misted on a condenser you are "transferring heat" more than any fan ever would so would know that is the issue. It will improve with water but by how much matters vs left alone with existing fans would be the clue if that is an area that needs anything or not,

Tom

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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby cornbinder89 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:47 pm

A condensers only job is to shed heat. So test for that, temp in vs. temp out. If it is removing all the heat one can reasonably expect (i.e outlet is 15- 20 deg above air temp crossing the tubes) than it is not the problem, more fans or misting with water will not change anything.
Parallel path systems can be tricky. They rely on system pressures to balance the two systems, and the load may not be equal, nor the size of the evaporator. Add to that the rear system tends to cool inside air while the front takes in air from outside. This alone changes the heat load on the two systems.
Before I changed the condenser or added fans, I would make absolutely sure that it is having a problem shedding the heat. Otherwise, you may introduce a problem and may end up chasing your tail.
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:13 pm

All true: Repeat and add that misting with water or lots of water will 10X beat air. The warmer spots would go dry faster and may not be good in an area. Nothing is going to fix that with more air flow if so new or not.

FYI - you get more with water as it evaporates itself it also takes more heat along meaning you could actually use warmer water than the condenser and still gain maximum heat transfer like perspiration on your skin on a hot day in fact exactly like that,

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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby cornbinder89 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:42 pm

Water misting is a great diagnostic tool that cost nothing, or close to it. I find my hand is enough to tell if the condenser is shedding enough or not. The inlet is too hot to hold onto for long, and the outlet is slightly warmer than the air temp, I know I'm good. If the outlet is hot, I've found my problem!
Thermodynamics, is a strange beast, change one thing slightly and everything else react to it. A slight change in air across the condenser and there is a big change down the line.
Unlike a car radiator, where it only gets tested to full capacity for short burst (how often do you run wide open for extended periods, on 100 deg days?) the condenser is very often pushed close to its maximum. It has to do its job or it will show in the vent temp.
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Re: Excursion A/C issues, HELP

Postby Tom Greenleaf » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:15 pm

Strange Beast! You can say that again!

Long thread so may have mentioned and was by ACProf about a car that never was great bought new. He took a cutting tool off and condensers from new had a chunk of solder blocking a tube which took out 1/3rd of it's capable heat transfer.

Certain routing of higher efficiency things like condensers and more do that. It's not that hot much of anywhere I can see right now so even some loss should be behaving or this is barking up the wrong tree.

Feeling for temp gets tricky with the "Truck" type vehicles with coolers in the way for assorted other things, PS, engine oil, trans fluid.

Getting repetitive - rear air can steal the bounty of the refrigerant so pressure if diagnosing that way I suggest knowing it's off and not involved,

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